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Re: way OT Perception/excellence



Robert Eberwein wrote:

> Okay Lance. Itís a pleasure to deal with a disagreement so civilly 
>framed.
> Iíll try to respond in kind. I'll assume we've both read Plato, and you 
>know
> I'm not suggesting that *what one perceives* is what is there- - -
>
> <i don't mean to begrudge your point, but thinking it
> <through implies there's an endpoint to the process.
> <With this kind of topic i'm not sure one can ever
> <fully "think" it through...
>
> But thatís full circle.

by this you mean tautology? if so i agree.

> I AM suggesting there is an endpoint.

i think it is the case that, at the end of the day, one has to turn out the
lights and go to sleep. this implies an endpoint, but *perfection* is not 
the
same thing to me.

>
> Is it really logical to say that EVERY *take* on a thing is as valid as
> every other?

maybe, but of course, if we operated this way we'd never get anything 
done. we
have to assume a system of values, based on our personal or group 
judgement,
but i'm less arguing anything on so pragmatic a level; i'm merely pointing 
out
(my personal observation) that a single most excellent solution does not 
exist
outside of a context driven by personal and/or group idiosyncracies. what 
we
judge to be excellent is what we have learned (and agree) is excellent 
within
the framework of our cultural conditioning. it does not exist in nature 
apart
from our minds.

> Iíll spare you examples [Vision is a good one]- - they could
> all be countered- óI just think not. I think, usually, statistically, the
> majority of perceptions are distorted and downright false- and a minority
> are closer to an accurate representation.

"...william james' philosophy of pragmatism states that it is not possible 
for
the mind to relate to anything other than ideas. all that the mind can 
ponder
is ideas about reality (whether or not that is the way reality actually 
is, is
a metaphysical issue)...therefore, whether or not something is true is not 
a
matter of how closely it corresponds to some absolute truth, but of how
consistent it is with our experience..."

-paraphrasing gary zukav, *the dancing wu li masters: an overview of the 
new
physics*


> <how do you define "absolutely perfect"? is this not relative to your
> <impression at that time? does everyone that hears it think so too? <can
> your impression ever change?
>
> Havenít you experienced that? I sense you have. We all have. It doesnít 
>mean
> anyone has to agree, but itís not a cryptic/intellectual point. In music 
>it
> is very often so; like I said: many chords/words could work- - - but one
> fits like hand-in-glove. You know it mathematically, emotionally,
> physically- - - absolutely. Why should I deny my every
> reason/instinct/feeling, and say, *Well, itís good, but so would a lot of
> other chords/words be good*?

i'm not suggesting we deny reason, or instinct, or feeling. john cage said,
"nothing was lost when everything was given away."

i know what i have felt to be something akin to "rightness". but i think 
it's a
matter of degree, relative to a particular time/place/state of being. it's
being in the groove, etc. but to put too sharp a point on it by saying it 
is
the *perfect* or absolute thing is giving ourselves (and maybe our egos) 
too
much credit. perhaps this is better left to god :-)

>
> <explain how a notion of excellence is necessarily at odds with a <view 
>of
> relativity?
>
> I think the answer is in your sentence already. Theyíre mutually 
>exclusive.
> Otherwise my *excellent* is your *mediocre* [or *shitty*].

probably not mine, but could be to an inuit walrus hunter...

> . and the words
> must be, in time, abandoned because they will lose their meaning.

meaning evolves; words work to keep up, some grow old and die, new words 
are
born to take their place...

> Words
> matter.

words matter, but there are very likely life forms in this universe that
*speak* quite differently than we, and whose values might turn ours upside
down. which absolutes will govern then?

> But I donít dispute that my position is even more difficult to defend 
>than
> yours. There is logic in believing that excellence only exists in 
>relation
> to something else.
>
> But one of us is closer to the [dreaded] Truth- - -

i'm not afraid of truth, but will we know it when we see it?

best,
lance g.