re: Looping Strategies

[Jah Jast <jast81@yahoo.com>]

Hello Dan,

Thank you for your (cool) feedback.
May i just say from the begining that i did not want to appear categorical 
in my statements as i said to Claude Voit "en Français" privately (now i 
know what is a "Troll" Claude!, thanks Wikipedia).
But my bad English does not allow me more nuances. 

> I often use my guitar synth to construct a song form with all 
the typical accompaniment drums, bass, keys, pads, etc - the Repeater 
allows me to then solo over four simultaneous loops. Those loops can be 
mutated, reversed, etc for variety.

1°You can compare this as the "Making-of"of a Movie.Interested to see 
once("for the Trick").Moreover all the process take Time,more than usual 
for a good song.Risk is you lost your listeners.Time-format is crucial 
here.That's why many Loopers end-up making Ambient(and please,i love 
Ambient).
2°If you want to play alone WHY imitate drums,bass,keys...?
re:"for the Trick!".Is the Trick the only power of your Theme?

> if I understand you correctly, layering does indeed present a problem 
>when a loop gets too 'dense' (vertical motion?).

Not only,the problem is much about when all the Song/Theme is based upon 
one Loop ("begining/middle/end i quit"),you see?No Harmonic 
movement(Horizontal motion),only Vertical motion(layering upon 
layering)Here starts Sound synthesis.

> "Sound Designer".This is the second Stage.
OK, I might be in 'stage two' this week.

lol...

> The problem IMO, may be that you have left the audience out of the 
>equation.  Hopefully the performer is trying to engage listeners at some 
>level, because 'performance art' can't really exist in a vacuum.

Well said!This is a recurrent problem with "looper" Artists: they seem to 
play just for themselves; precisely because people don't care about all 
those Tricks...That said i can understand the concept of 'Performance 
Art'.I saw one time at the television a Painter executing a painting of 
Marylin Monroe real-time in less than 6 minutes and WOA!!! i will never 
forget that.This is Talent!

> play briefly the begining,the middle,and the end of the track and if i 
>can notice the same loop there and there, then i quit... 
You've expressed your preference and your method of excluding a whole 
genre of performances.

As i said,i love (good) Ambient,the Music of Dennis Moser to name a few...

> You are obviously a musician, but are making some sweeping statements 
>about motivations for looping and the artistic merit of different 
>approaches and applications.

I am a humble Musician not better than all of you i'm sure. 

> but bass is a great instrument for looping, especially 
since looping can expand an understanding of musical roles not typically 
associated with the bass.

That's why i don't intend to switch and...i own an EDP.

> Sorry - this got a bit too long 
You're welcome,I HAVE to thank you for your kind support. 
Good luck with your Music!




--- On Wed, 7/23/08, Dan Ash <Daniel.Ash@Verizon.net> wrote:

> From: Dan Ash <Daniel.Ash@Verizon.net>
> Subject: re: Looping Strategies
> To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
> Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2008, 5:17 PM
> Some thoughts in response.  I hope you don't take
> offense, but I have 
> some problems with categorical statements even though I
> understand many 
> of your observations about looping approaches.
> 
> > "the syndrome of the One Man Band" 
> "the syndrome of the One Man Band" is only a
> syndrome if you make a 
> value judgment on the 'validity' of this as a
> musical art. Speaking for 
> myself, I often use my guitar synth to construct a song
> form with all 
> the typical accompaniment drums, bass, keys, pads, etc -
> the Repeater 
> allows me to then solo over four simultaneous loops. Those
> loops can be 
> mutated, reversed, etc for variety. I prefer creating all
> loops live 
> except for a 'canned' drum loop, which in my mind
> fades quickly into the 
> background. Yes - it's a one man band if you look at it
> that way. And if 
> I understand you correctly, layering does indeed present a
> problem when 
> a loop gets too 'dense' (vertical motion?).
> 
> > "Sound Designer".This is the second Stade.
> OK, I might be in 'stage two' this week.  During a
> looping set, I will sometimes go with a simpler theme - for
> example: a wash of sound or minimalist theme w/ no drums
> that evolves over time by varying feedback level.  The
> technology allows you to take a very simple soundscape and
> create a mood or to serve as a bed to improvise over.  
> 
> But again it seems you're making a value judgment on
> your 'sound designers'. The problem IMO, may be that
> you have left the audience out of the equation.  Hopefully
> the performer is trying to engage listeners at some level,
> because 'performance art' can't really exist in
> a vacuum. Many artists, in different mediums (painting,
> film, music) are confrontational, even abusive just to
> elicit a reaction in the observer.  I happen to love effects
> and of course my guitar synth is really the same thing... 
> You obviously find effects, even looping devices to be
> cliche, although I bet it took you some time experimenting
> with them in order to reach your conclusions.  Also, the
> audience may not be as quick to label either the
> one-man-band or heavily processed sounds as cliches,
> especially if they're chatting with friends or
> people-watching.  
> 
> 
> > play briefly the begining,the middle,and the end of
> the track and if i can notice the same loop there and there,
> then i quit... 
> You've expressed your preference and your method of
> excluding a whole 
> genre of performances.  You've made a perfectly valid
> statement, and we 
> all agree that no one has the time to listen to much of the
> sh** that is 
> 'released' on the internet and readily available
> for download. 
> 
> But because you use a specific screening technique, I
> wonder if you are 
> still willing to invest the time required see how a work
> evolves in real 
> time or just find it easier to decide what you *don't*
> like and avoid 
> listening to those genres.  Many of my peers tend to
> exclude new or 
> unfamiliar music -just like parents have done with the
> music every new 
> generation adopts as their own.  I also know people that
> just can't sit 
> still and listen to music anymore - I sometimes have to
> actually force 
> myself to do this.
> 
> > Musicians, not "Mad professors" 
> Some of us profess to being musicians first - other
> performers surely 
> wish to create a 'mad professor' persona.  Others
> here just want to 
> entertain/amuse people.  I remember Paul McCartney saying
> that the 
> Beatles thought of themselves as 'entertainers'
> because the concept of a 
> rock star hadn't even emerged.  You are obviously a
> musician, but are 
> making some sweeping statements about motivations for
> looping and the 
> artistic merit of different approaches and applications. 
> 
> > i don't intend to shift to Guitar for the sake of
> Looping (no offence)
> None taken - but bass is a great instrument for looping,
> especially 
> since looping can expand an understanding of musical roles
> not typically 
> associated with the bass.
> 
> 
> Sorry - this got a bit too long - I presume we'll see
> other comments 
> about your observations.
> 
> Dan Ash
> White Plains, NY
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> > Subject:
> > Looping Strategies
> > From:
> > Jah Jast <jast81@yahoo.com>
> > Date:
> > Wed, 23 Jul 2008 07:26:36 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> > To:
> > Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
> >
> >
> > First of all sorry for my Pidgin English.
> > I'm gonna be unpopular i'm sure but here is
> some thoughts about Looping. 
> >
> > At the first Stade the aspiring Looper is animated by
> what i would call "the syndrome of the One Man
> Band" .
> > More than Ego (though it is a bit) this is often a
> problem of lack of confidence along with technique which
> leads him here.(Tracy Chapman can do a great Song with just
> an acoustic guitar and 3 or 4 chords no more...)
> > The loop strategy here consists in Layering part onto
> part and try to simulate a band.
> > Soon he realizes that as fun as it is,it is a sterile
> way.
> > Then he tends now to become a kind of "Sound
> Designer".This is the second Stade.The cause here is
> often a problem of lack of Inspiration,if the one of
> technique is now improved...
> > Accumulate all type of effects is now the Quest.The
> goal is to sound like a synthesizer even if he plays
> flute.The loop strategy is now again Layering part onto part
> onto part....But to be convincing,that requires time (and
> patience for listeners)...
> > And you are stuck in a "vertical motion"
> (which is not the case with a Synthesizer.)
> > This is why i have some problems with the layering
> Concept.
> > Every time i listen to Loopers (less and less) i play
> briefly the begining,the middle,and the end of the track and
> if i can notice the same loop there and there, then i
> quit... 
> > I really appreciate an approach like the one of Dennis
> Moser for example and incidentally he uses (very) long
> Delays more than "pure" Loops, if i'm not
> wrong.Indeed the horizontal Motion is saved here and
> Layering and effect processings are not constrictings.
> > In fact, i bielieve that a good way to understand WHAT
> is Looping is to begin to work with short delays and little
> by little ending with long and finally,conventional Loop
> techniques.
> > The survey of Krispen Hartung was necessary cause it
> reminds us that first we pretend to be Musicians, not
> "Mad professors" and there is a lot of work to do
> on our Instrument.
> >
> > PS: I'm a born Bass Player,and i don't intend
> to shift to Guitar for the sake of Looping (no
> offence).Thanks.
> >
> >
> >