Process vs. Theory- was, Who's on the forefront of loopmuse

[Mike.Biffle@wj.com (Mike Biffle)]

David Kirkdorffer wrote...
>I think in the contemporary art world, a great deal of the value
>conferred to a "piece" is derived from it's "moving forward" or
>expanding an idea beyond a previous state -- puns, meanings and
>craftsmanship aside. 

Interesting comment David. When my wife was in the MFA graduate program at 
CCAC 
(California College of Arts and Crafts in Oakland, CA.) There was often 
this 
debate over Theory and continuous dialog (often just one upmanship) versus 
"Process" and being true to process.

>So, in that context, David Myers' complaints that Fripp's "new"
>soundscapes aren't all that new, nor are they really "moving forward"
>the greater looping "oeuvre" are quite valid.

>Granted, that may not be Fripp's Aim.  While I guess confined to a
>Fripp-y world, Soundscapes, or as they are recently termed, Space Music,

Space Music!!!!??? We were calling our improvs Space Music in 1971!! Boy 
that 
really does break gound! (I mean wind.) 8->

>probably *are* an expansion of the Frippertronic idea.   That said, I
>think Fripp's concerns while he is playing his loop-based music are more
>to do with the Process (of improvisation and surprises) and the Setting
>(breaking up the audience / artist separation), than any concerns with
>"art."

My take on it regarding Fripp is this... Robert Fripp has been described 
by 
people like Bowie and Sylvian as working "very fast" and not being all 
that 
concerned with lots of takes and polishing the piece, etc. He likes to 
live with
the results of his first or true reactions to a given musical moment.

His ongoing experiments with his solo work seem to involve this "set and 
setting" sort of process. That being an interactive relationship with 
equipment,
personal being, environment and audience. Not necessarily the best 
location to 
devolop a theory oriented "thesis" type of quantum leap in thought and 
execution. I don't believe any of his lectures and early stage exits are 
performance art oriented. They are practical measures he uses only to 
illustrate
better what he's trying to accomplish. As much as I dislike his lectures 
to the 
audience, I do tend to agree with his process. He's probably taken so much 
crap 
from people that he's more stubborn in his formalistic way than ever. And 
I'm 
not sure I can blame him for that.

It seems that process oriented work involves a lot of trust and a belief 
that 
you will learn and grow as much from disastrous outcomes as well as 
successes in
the "process". Nothing is a finished piece in that they all represent only 
a 
moment in time. Next time around... Who knows? 

Does a process oriented approach keep you more humble?

and about art?

>Seems to me that's more Eno's territory.

Sounds good to me... Although I've heard Eno and others describe some of 
his 
studio behavior, and he still sounds fairly process oriented.

>*So, just for giggles, it raises the question, what / who is on the
>forefront of "looping-based music"?*
>David Kirkdorffer

Good question! I better get my VISA out and buy a few more CD's! I live in 
a 
pretty tight vacuum at the moment.

David Myers earlier comments...
>>Robert at the Bottom Line Saturday night; saw the early show.  I
>>don't think even the people at TC Electronic or Eventide would have
>>been pleased--this is all that can be done with 20 grand worth of
>>gear? I kept wanting to shout, "OK, Bob, now HIT IT!".  (Wouldn't have 
>been
>>out of place: LOTS of people were shouting.)  It was like he was
>>waiting for the right moment to break loose, but never did and never 
>intended
>>to--or didn't know how.  I well realize that when you make a goof in a 
>looping
>>situation you are in deep trouble, but his timidity was appalling; 5
>>minutes of what we heard would have been impressive, but he more or less 
>just
>>let it limp along for two hours.

>>I love everything Crimson has done, and the "Let The Power
>>Fall"-type Frippertronics are kind of minimalist masterpieces, but listen
>>to what somebody like Paul Dresher did on "Liquid and Stellar Music"
>>many years ago and you begin to see that Fripp really doesn't have much 
>to
>>offer.  Nor do I sense that he is even aware of Dresher, Terry Riley, 
>etc.--or
>>perhaps any work outside rock or the rock fringe.  It seems that he 
>believes
>>he's doing something unprecedented.  What he's doing that IS different is
>>presenting a rather inept sort of ambient music to crowds which are 
>largely
>>unfamiliar with even Eno's "Discreet Music" (which this show was 
>uncannily
>>reminicent of), and pissing them off.  I think 90% of this crowd expected
>>"Red", and if I were one of them I'd be screaming, too.  But I think this
>>is part of what Robert wants to do: mess with people.  He will call it
>>"inviting them to expand their horizons" or some such thing, but it 
>seems to 
>>me that it's  mostly just self-indulgence.
>>Yeah, the inevitable flashbulb went off--and so did Bob.  He returned, 
>>butwithout the promised "Q & A" period afterward.  I would have asked, 
>"can 
wego >>now?".
     >>-David Myers
     
     Wow David... I'll bet you're in for a roast!
     
     I saw Fripp waaayyyy back at Madame Wongs on his first Frippertronics 
     tour (1976 or so?) when he was carting around a couple of Revoxes. 
     After an incredibly long wait outside, we were the treated to a long 
     lecture about audience responsibility and his particular rules about 
     tape recorders and cameras etc. I saw about 1/2 hour of that and 
left. 
     
     He did more to spoil the magic of hearing his music than any 
flashbulb 
     might have. I truly was looking forward to seeing him, and went away 
     disturbed that the event was so entirely uncomfortable. Not in any 
     mind-stretching avante-garde way, but just physically and mentally 
     overbearing.
     
     In more recent Soundscapes concerts, as impressive as I think they 
     are, I've often wished he'd just let it rip, if only for a moment or 
     so. How about responsibility to your audience Robert? I'll meet you 
     half way.
     
     Now I've done it. I'll see you in hell David Myers!
     -Miko