Re: Akai Heardush , a little frustrated, please help..

[Travis <tiktok@sprintmail.com>]

Even if the loop is tapped in time to begin with (the loop may even be 
the beginning or foundation of the piece), at some point it's likely 
that some drift is going to occur between one or more of the musicians 
and the loop.  People can have great time on a human scale, but when it 
comes to machines the margins are, of course, inhuman.  I've got a 
groove box that allows tap tempo and displays the BPM down to 1/10BPM, 
and I find it impossible to reliably match an audible click down to the 
dot. And that's when I'm not playing guitar at the same time and trying 
to follow several other musicians and operate foot pedals, etc.

Re-triggering doesn't help if the overall tempo has increased or 
decreased.  If someone's playing 5% faster than the loop tempo, and the 
loop contains specific rhythmic and/or melodic information that the 
other musicians are in theory playing "with", then a re-trigger will 
only fix things for a very short time.  And if the loop is longer than 
a bar, the loop controlling musician may not want to lop off a few bars 
to try and chase the tempo of the other musician(s).  Likewise, 
redefining loop length won't help, since that only changes the start 
and end point, and all the information between will still be out of 
sync with the new tempo.

Re-recording the loop on the fly isn't a very workable option if the 
loop is multiple bars (say eight) and features multiple layers.  If 
it's a loop with three "voices", it'll take twenty-four bars to 
re-record all the music, by which time the tempo may have shifted 
again, or that part of the piece may have ended.

A sync clock from the other players also wouldn't help in the above 
situation, because it doesn't fix the problem of mis-aligned beats 
within the loop once the tempo starts shifting.  Unless you had 
real-time pitch stretching operating in tandem with the clock chasing.

I'd always wondered how other people used loops in band contexts.  In 
my experience, we either all followed MIDI clock, or the loops were 
ambient and could be left to freewheel.  But we weren't doing 
pre-composed pieces, and in the MIDI clock situation there was no 
drummer (all programmed/sampled beats and loops).

And I have a hard enough time finding a drummer with a kit, car and 
phone, let alone one who is willing and able to follow a click in live 
circumstances.  I'd love to hear from other people who have dealt with 
loops in an ensemble situation with pre-composed tunes/songs.

TravisH

>> you're gonna have to drill this into your drummers head because he's 
>> used to being the one who picks and maintains the tempo, but now that 
>> you're looping, YOU ARE THE METRONOME.  the drummer must follow you, 
>> not the other way around.  i'm still reminding my drummer that once a 
>> loop is running, that's the tempo he has to follow.
>
> This seems too rigid to me, and kind of like an excuse for looping 
> musicians who haven't developed the skills to control their loops very 
> well. In a band, everybody should be listening to everybody, and 
> taking responsibility that they are playing their own part in time 
> with everybody else. That *includes* you and your loops. Yes, the 
> others should listen and lock in to you also, but when your loop is 
> shifting out of tempo with everyone else, you need to know how to 
> adjust it!
>
> that might include:
> - tapping the loop in time to begin with
> - retriggering loops to get aligned back with the downbeat (manual 
> sync)
> - adjusting tempo controls to beat match
> - redefining loop lengths on the fly
> - re-recording the loop on the fly if necessary
> - generating sync clocks from other players for the looper to follow
> - etc.
>
> Stamping your foot and insisting that everybody else has to obey the 
> tempo of your loop seems like a good way to end up being a solo 
> musician since nobody else will want to play with you.