Re: Stereo EDP -- some statistics and an opinion...

["Nic Roozeboom" <nic_roozeboom@msn.com>]

>A small nit:  A piano isn't stereo, per se. It's our hearing apparatus --
>our two ears getting divergent signals -- that creates the stereo image.  
>If
>we had fours ears, we'd probably be strongly inclined toward 4-channel
>playback.  And, after smoking some pot, some of us might really feel
>8-channel playback is waay groovy. :-)

Chemical parameters aside - I was using the term 'stereo-' in its (I 
believe) original meaning of: relating to spatial characteristic, not to 
its 
more commercial meaning of two-channel. I suppose it was mightily 
optimistic 
/ overenthusiastic it the time in history when two-channel rendering was 
considered "stereo" ;-)

In other words, I wasn't even considering the two-eared (maximum) 
chemically 
motivated human observer yet - just the sound source.

Nic


>From: "David" <vze2ncsr@verizon.net>
>Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>To: <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com>
>Subject: Re: Stereo EDP -- some statistics and an opinion...
>Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:48:39 -0400
>
>Nic -
>
>You're right.  We humans perceive sound from all around us.
>
>A small nit:  A piano isn't stereo, per se. It's our hearing apparatus --
>our two ears getting divergent signals -- that creates the stereo image.  
>If
>we had fours ears, we'd probably be strongly inclined toward 4-channel
>playback.  And, after smoking some pot, some of us might really feel
>8-channel playback is waay groovy. :-)
>
>Listen to a sound from a single loudspeaker in a room -- and, assuming you
>have two ears and they are both working nicely, you're listening to that
>sound in stereo -- as the sound bounces around the room and hits your two
>ears differently.
>
>This feature helped our survival-oriented forefathers (and foremothers) 
>more
>accurately orient themselves as they ran toward juicy nutritious prey, or
>away from nasty horrible hunters.
>
>As you correctly pinpoint, it's the process of capturing an instrument's
>sound and using its acoustic energy to create an electronic signal that 
>can
>be recorded, amplified, modified, etc. that renders the instrument "mono."
>In the recording process, multiple microphones are often used capture a
>spatial quality -- especially for acoustic instruments like piano, drums,
>choirs and even loudspeakers themselves!  :-)   Accurately rendering a
>three-dimensional spatial environment is what makes the advent of 5.1, 
>6.1,
>7.1 etc., so enticing.   Even so, here the spatial information is reduced 
>to
>5, 6, or 7 + 1 sources during playback.
>
>So yes, if you wanna do some of the most nifty way-sophisticated looping 
>of
>a stereo sound image projected by your acoustic guitar, you'll need two
>EDP's.  And in the USA, you can do that for $48/month.
>
>David
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Nic Roozeboom" <nic_roozeboom@msn.com>
>To: <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 1:45 PM
>Subject: Re: Stereo EDP -- some statistics and an opinion...
>
>
> > >Stereo shmereo - what a paper tiger!! - a few thoughts:
> > >
> > >1) all natural (as opposed to electrically enhanced) instruments are
>mono.
> >
> > This is such a grandiose oversimplification, I don't know where to
>start...
> > ;-) Rather than actually try, I'll offer this: a grand piano is an 
>eminent
> > example of a stereophonic instrument.
> >
> > What makes any instument, natural or otherwise, 'monophonic' is the 
>result
> > of recording and rendering it using a single channel. It's the capture 
>and
> > reproduction, not the instrument, that bears the characteristic of 
>being
> > mono.
> >
> > And, being 80% guitarist myself;-) - I'd add that a classical guitar, 
>like
> > many other natural instruments, is a spatial sound source, not a
> > single-point sound field.
> >
> > As ever, not helping,
> > Nic
> >
> >
> > >From: "David" <vze2ncsr@verizon.net>
> > >Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
> > >To: <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com>
> > >Subject: Re: Stereo EDP  -- some statistics and an opinion...
> > >Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:13:48 -0400
> > >
> > >OK - this gets my dander up!  :-)  So....
> > >
> > >Adopting Curmudgeonly Kirkdorffer Persona:
> > >
> > >Stereo shmereo - what a paper tiger!! - a few thoughts:
> > >
> > >1) all natural (as opposed to electrically enhanced) instruments are
>mono.
> > >2) I'm guessing 80% of Looper-Delight readers are electric guitarists.
> > >(Kim?
> > >Anyone?)
> > >3) Electric guitars, bases, violins, tubas, bazookis, kazoos,  and 
>voice
> > >are
> > >all mono.
> > >4) If you're creating a stereo field with your instrument, you're 
>likely
> > >going through a few pieces of gear to artificially create that field 
>--
> > >OR -- you're playing some kind of (somewhat) more upscale or esoteric
> > >electronic instrument -- a groovebox or keyboard/synthesizer for 
>example.
> > >5) If it's been important to you to buy the tools to create the stereo
> > >field -- you've decided it's worth spending the money to get to 
>stereo 
>--
> > >cool.  And you have a stereo amp, and two monitors.
> > >6) If you can afford stereo-enabling devices -- you probably have more
>than
> > >one of them.
> > >7) If you can afford to invest in stereo devices, can afford two 
>monitors
> > >and have a stereo amp, you are probably a lot closer to affording a
>second
> > >EDP than you're letting on.
> > >
> > >F  A  C  T  - 1:  Here are stats from that big EDP "restart" order I
>helped
> > >organize with Gibson at the end of 1999.
> > >
> > >     89% wanted 1 EDP
> > >      9% wanted 2 EDP's
> > >      2% wanted 3 EDP's
> > >
> > >F  A  C  T  - 2:  From a Looping Device Market Penetration and Demand
>study
> > >I did in in 1997, 46% of EDP owners at the time indicated they would 
>buy
> > >another EDP if priced at $700 +/- 10%.  (If you want a copy of this
>report,
> > >let me know).
> > >
> > >It seems if you need a stereo edp, here are your basic options:
> > >
> > >     1) Present an economic case to Gibson for them to build it
> > >     2) Design one yourself and build it -- if you think there's
>sustaining
> > >market demand for it, set up shop and make more.
> > >     3) Buy a second unit: $649.99 from Alto Music.
> > >
> >
> 
>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2553271953&category=621
> > >     4) Buy a used unit when they come for sale -- and they do!
> > >
> > >I chose option 3.  For me, it was clearly the cheapest, most effective
>and
> > >quickest way to get what I needed.
> > >
> > >Exiting Curmudgeonly Kirkdorffer Persona.
> > >
> > >:-)
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Mark Hamburg" <mark_hamburg@baymoon.com>
> > >To: "Looper's Delight" <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com>
> > >Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 1:37 AM
> > >Subject: Re: Stereo EDP
> > >
> > >
> > > > on 8/25/03 8:22 PM, Greg House at ghunicycle@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > And frankly, I don't care for someone telling me what I need when
>I'm
> > >the one
> > > > > sitting with my rig going "crap, I need a mixer now." I have to 
>buy
> > >MORE
> > >GEAR
> > > > > for
> > > > > the sole reason of WORKING AROUND basic product deficiencies like
> > >signal
> > >level
> > > > > incompatibilities or the fact that there's one box in the mix 
>that's
> > >not
> > > > > stereo.
> > > >
> > > > That was my basic point.
> > > >
> > > > The EDP not doing stereo looping is potentially disappointing. If
>you've
> > >got
> > > > stereo signals and you want to loop them and walk away, a stereo
>looper
> > >is
> > > > pretty important. If you've got sounds that you have carefully 
>placed
>in
> > >the
> > > > stereo field, a stereo looper is pretty important. But if stereo 
>were
> > >really
> > > > critical all the time, you'd think that more mix boards would have
> > >stereo
> > > > effects sends instead of mono sends.
> > > >
> > > > Not being stereo friendly, however -- i.e., not having stereo 
>throughs
> > >--
> > > > means that the EDP rapidly forces a need for a mixer as well and 
>that
> > >costs
> > > > both money and rack space. (Or it forces a need for a second EDP 
>that
> > >will
> > > > allow you to work in stereo for most but not quite all features.)
> > > >
> > > > Being mono isn't necessarily a huge barrier to entry. Not being 
>able
>to
> > >play
> > > > nicely with stereo equipment without help is a barrier to entry in 
>all
> > >but
> > > > the simplest setups and in those setups its a pain that you've got 
>to
> > >find
> > >a
> > > > place to balance a rack mount item and hook up a separate foot 
>pedal.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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