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Re: Looping and Mixing/Mixing Loops
Very much like my Ableton setup :)
On May 11, 2012, at 11:03 PM, Gmail wrote:
> I'm loving this topic! This was one of my biggest issues when i first
> started looping about a year ago. I loop with FL studio hosting mobius.
> I have a continuous project/setup that I work on. Basically all of my
> software instruments are what I call prEQ'd. Each track first sends from
> the plugin to track in FL Studio. The EQ effects and other pre-effects
> are applied in these tracks. I call them the input tracks. The audio
> output of these channels is linked to the audio input of mobius which is
> then recorded and looped. Mobius plays what I call "dry loops" because
> even though the instruments were recorded with pre-mobius effects, the
> effects are there to make the instrument sound the way its supposed to
> as if there were no effects to it. Then the audio output of the mobius
> tracks are linked directly back into a separate set of FL studio tracks
> that I call the ouput. Each output track one has an instrument-specific
> effect that is post-mobius. Therefore I can modulate the playing loops
> with things like high cut filters, low cut filters and etc. Then all of
> out put tracks are linked into one, main FX track. With this track i can
> modulate effects onto the entire output of the audio. For example I have
> every instrument sound looping at once; I can turn up reverb on the Main
> FX channel and this reverb will apply to every instrument.
>
> Kaylon
>
> On May 11, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Per Boysen <perboysen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Highly relevant thoughts, Philip! Mixing and live looping is closely
>> related, but still very different in praxis.
>>
>> My concept for live looping is what I use to call "the musician
>> concept". For sound design I use what I call "the reverse engineered
>> mixing technique". What I mean with this is that I apply everything to
>> my live instrument input sound that you in a mixing situation would
>> apply to each of the tracks to be mixed. EQ, effects, compression,
>> even effect loops with the return channel side-chained by the live
>> input (my instrument). Many effects are quite subtle and dynamic
>> processing often synced to the looping tempo. The theory is to make
>> your instrument sound in a way that works well for layering. I
>> typically do all this to my instrument signal PRE loop, so every layer
>> I overdub into a loop may have different effects in order to blend
>> well as a multi layered loop.
>>
>> There is also different concept for live looping that I use to call
>> "the re-remix concept". Many Ableton Live users fancy this concept
>> because Live allows you to treat separate parallel loops individually;
>> running each looper channel through its own mixer channel. This is
>> exactly how you do when mixing and you can achieve sonic perfection.
>> One records loops at different channels and then apply effects and
>> processing POST loop. My problem with this method is that it takes
>> quite a lot of time to get it to sound good any by the birth of your
>> masterpiece the audience might have gone home.
>>
>> An important aspect of my "musician concept" is that when looping the
>> already perfected sound into just one or a few loops you are keeping
>> all options at hand for drastic rearranging on-the-fly as you perform.
>> For example, it is much easier to keep the show going when putting one
>> multi part loop into half-speed compared to putting five separate
>> parts loops into half-speed.
>>
>> Of course, with my musician's concept reverse-engineered mixing
>> technique your strategy is crucial. It is possible to paint yourself
>> stuck into a corner. When that happens the only way out is to kick
>> Global Reset and start over from square one - if done as one move
>> while the music is going the audience will just hear it as a
>> break-down section or similar. Most important for my performance
>> strategy is to instantly tag musical parts to decide what kind of loop
>> I'll layer them into. These are the types of loops I have chosen to
>> work with:
>>
>> 1. Tonal loops that can be speed shifted, in order to create chord
>> changes, without too much rhythmic hassle. Often pad type sounding. If
>> using a polyphonic instrument I can create such a loop by just playing
>> a chord and record it, but if using a monophonic instrument I use to
>> overdub many notes to form a chord.
>>
>> 2. Atonal loops with percussive content. These loops are not being
>> speed shifted when I improvise chord changes by speed shifting a type
>> #1 loop.
>>
>> 3. Loops created for the purpose of poly rhythmic interaction with
>> another loop. Such a loop plays by a different length than the one it
>> plays against.
>>
>> The above is the corner stones of my instant composing technique.
>>
>> As for the noise issue you brought up I'm all for shutting up when not
>> playing and muting the input between played notes. On my Stratocaster
>> I play with the volume knob. You can mute between fourth notes using
>> the pinky on that knob. When using wind instruments and a mic I have a
>> volume pedal directly after the mic to mute the leaking PA sound from
>> getting into the loops. I even use this volume pedal for note attack
>> sometimes, when playing heavily distorted flute it is a must and part
>> of the instrument.
>>
>> When playing an instrument with several audio signals I always keep
>> all inputs going plus all effect returns going to the looper,
>> following the what-you-hear-is-what-you-loop routine. Everything in my
>> live looping rig is set up for instant performance access. Everything
>> is PRE looper. The stereo looper output is totally dry, just with a
>> little compression added to make it groove better. The reverb and
>> delay effects heard are all recorded into loops. This makes it
>> possible for me to apply drastic on-the-fly cutting to the full mix, I
>> can play the mix instantly like you play an instrument, that's why I
>> call it "a musician based concept".
>>
>> Greetings from Sweden
>>
>> Per Boysen
>> www.perboysen.com
>> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 5:21 PM, Philip Conway
>> <Philip.Conway@bristol.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>>
>>> Some recent discussion on the list (when not heatedly debating Youtube
>>> sensations, of course) has focused not just on looping but also on
>>> recording
>>> and mixing generally. That there is a high level of expertise on these
>>> subjects in the LD community is perhaps not surprising but it raises
>>> some
>>> questions in my mind about the relationship between looping and
>>> recording/mixing.
>>>
>>> Since we're generally talking about LIVE looping then many of the
>>> practices
>>> of recording musicians just don't apply - for example, we don't do take
>>> after take trying to make things perfect, we work with the
>>> imperfections
>>> inherent in performance, etc. And yet, on the other hand, ultimately
>>> what
>>> we're doing is recording and combining multiple layers of audio and so
>>> many
>>> principles of 'non-real time' recording and mixing are very important.
>>>
>>> For example, I use a laptop, an Apogee Duet and Mobius hosted in
>>> Ableton
>>> Live to loop my guitar. One problem I've struggled with is how to set
>>> up an
>>> appropriate gain structure to keep the noise floor low (very important
>>> if
>>> you're using single coils!) while not clipping the inputs or eating up
>>> headroom in the software too quickly, using up space for further loops.
>>>
>>> With an instrument like an electric guitar that has a large dynamic
>>> range
>>> and can fill up the audio spectrum quite quickly I've found that
>>> compression, limiting and EQ are as essential to my setup as anything
>>> else.
>>>
>>> But enough about me!
>>>
>>> What's your experience with this relationship?
>>>
>>> Do you 'mix' your loops as you go or simply adjust your technique to
>>> achieve
>>> a range of sounds?
>>>
>>> Do you anticipate the needs of the audio you're about to record or
>>> tweak
>>> things as you go?
>>>
>>> Do you find that lessons learned in mixing recorded music inform your
>>> looping (or vice versa)?
>>>
>>> Am I just over-thinking the grand old art of the loop?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> Philip.
>>>
>>
>