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The Cage-ian things people were saying led me to hunt down a sight with his classic Indeterminacy stories: http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/~eddietwo/indeterminacy/ Two in particular come to mind a la looping. The first relates to what someone said about loops "changing" while staying the same: (wacky spacing not mine) At the New School once I was substituting for Henry Cowell, teaching a class in Oriental music. I had told him I didn't know anything about the subject. He said, ``That's all right. Just go where the records are. Take one out. Play it and then discuss it with the class.'' Well, I took out the first record. It was an LP of a Buddhist service. It began with a short microtonal chant with sliding tones, then soon settled into a single loud reiterated percussive beat. This noise continued relentlessly for about fifteen minutes with no perceptible variation. A lady got up and screamed, and then yelled, ``Take it off. I can't bear it any longer.'' I took it off. A man in the class then said angrily, ``Why'd you take it off? I was just getting interested.'' **** Then there's this one: In Zen they say: If something is boring after two minutes, try it for four. If still boring, try it for eight, sixteen, thirty-two, and so on. Eventually one discovers that it's not boring at all but very interesting. -Jesse