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Thanks Andre and d/t for you suggestions about creating midi stutter effects. I am familiar with those but still think it is valuable for a midi program to quantize to smaller note values so that you can keep things like conventional backbeats in place. BTW, Andre, GLITCH is the correct genre term and OPAL is the band to check out. I use STUTTER because it is what everybody is doing these days. I don't think it is considered a genre, though (although someone will probably prove me wrong on this one). Long live FSU!!!!! I also am talking about early jungle when more of this technique was being used (before glitch even occurred...........except the 15 bands, unbenkownst to me,that were probably doing it in the 60's that Richard Zvonar will tell us about ;-). Modern jungle, frankly has been very commercial and boring to me (please enlighten me with listening suggestions all you modern junglists out there). Also, big thanks to Carl for the workaround on creating 64 note triplets in Sonar and thanks for the correction about the 'professional' quality of Sonar. Please forgive my misunderstanding...........I don't actually have the program and was only going on outdated word of mouth. It is exceedingly cool that a company listens to what the folks in the trenches are doing and repsonds to them..................Big Kudos to Carl and SONAR!!!! David also mentioned conventional and unconventional clusterings of notes. I particularly love taking two solid drinking glasses (the older fashioned heavy kind that have a lot of dense glass at the bottom of the glass) and forcing them together. If you slow the sample down you can hear the d d d d d d d d d d d d d dddddddddddddddd quality of the mutliple bounce. It just sounds like an upwards chrystiline pitch bend at normal speed. I am so fascinated about stretching rhythms within the normal confines of a 4/4 or 3/4 time signature and am working a lot on ways of teaching oneself to be able to play this stuff. When I get a little more time (two c drive failures in the last three weeks....................sheeesh) I'll post a couple of very hip ways to teach oneself how to practise different time stretches (or molays as they have been called in Brazilian music) using computer looping tools................remind me if I forget if anyone is interested. I have also really been interested in clusters of notes being percieved a single rhythmic event. I'm actually really experimenting a lot with this concept in the realm of acoustic trapset drumming and hand percussion, using multiple bounces by unusual beaters: plastic martinia skewers, pieces of plastic, metal barbecue skewers as well as conventional drum stick'buzz' strikes and multiple jazz brush strikes. I've also been buying all kinds of different chains (from punk wristlets to nightlight chains to chain links for fences) that cause multiple bounces on cymbals, snares, toms, et. al. Percussionists out there: try this shit out on a tight dumbec with a synthetic skin..............it rocks Well, got to go..............I'm off to flash the BIOS on music computer #2 in the big room here at Purple Hand Studios (ha ha ha............it is all of 10' X 10', as opposed to the little room at Purple Hand Studios, which is our former kitchen table.....ha ha ha) hope to see some L. D. ers at the Fractal/Loop.pooL/Headshear show on Saturday night at the Quarter Note in Sunnyvale details below. yours, Rick Walker (aka, loop.pool) Who: Fractal + Headshear + Loop.pooL When: Sat 16th March 2002, 8:30pm til late Where: The Quarternote, 1214 Apollo Way (corner of Lawrence and Central Expressways), Sunnyvale, CA