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Look ahead limiting has the ability to get extreme levels on to a CD. It can be really cool but it has also butchered countless records. > First of all, I'm targeting > -3db or -4db as my max. output level, which is pretty much industry > standard these days for CDs, 16 bit, and 44.1K. I think you are confusing RMS levels with max output levels. If you set your max output to -0.5 you should be OK. As for the threshold levels that is totally content dependent, as well as relating to the level of the recorded signal. You are going to have to use your ears. If you do too much gain reduction you will begin to hear pretty ugly distortion creeping into the music (limiting low frequencies will bring this on faster than high frequencies. More than 5 dB of gain reduction on most types of music is really extreme. Also be very careful about getting to excited by loudness. In the short term most people think loud=better but smashing all the dynamics out of program material with look ahead limiting can really kill the long term listening experience on many styles of music.. Ronan Chris Murphy www.venetowest.com (Production & mixing: King Crimson, Chucho Valdes, Steve Morse, Terry Bozzio, CGT...) www.homerecordingbootcamp.com (Workshops around the world teaching the art and craft of recording ) www.livesofthesaints.net (The hottest ambient noise duo since Sonny & Cher) On Feb 13, 2005, at 1:19 PM, Krispen Hartung wrote: > Well, I just received my Alesis Masterlink ML-9600 and I absolutely > love > this unit. It is a dream come true for live recording and > archiving...especially so because I can burn CDs of my performance > right > there on stage from the unit's hard drive. The recording quality is > immaculate and I really like the DSP, non-destructive editing features. > > > Anyway, I'd like some feedback from some of the other sound engineers > out there. I understand compression and limiting reasonably well (the > mathematics of compression, ratios, etc) and use it frequently in both > live and recording/sound engineering contexts. However, this Mastelink > has a "look-ahead peak limiting" function, which as the manual says, is > "designed to give you the ability to limit the highest peaks in a Track > and simultaneously bring up the gain of the Track in order to maximize > its level before creating a CD." After messing around with this, I am > very pleased with the results, but I'd like some thoughts what others > are using for output and threshold levels. First of all, I'm targeting > -3db or -4db as my max. output level, which is pretty much industry > standard these days for CDs, 16 bit, and 44.1K. Right now, I have the > output of the look-ahead peak limiter set to -4db and my threshold is > set to -3db. This seems to work well. Based on some guidelines I've > seen for limiters, threshold is typically set at the max. desired > output, and output perhaps just a sliver below this max. output, which > is what I've done here. I could have set both the same as well. > > What are some of you, who do your own mastering, using for limiting > setting guidelines? Better yet, if you are using a look-ahead limiter, > what setting guidelines or rules of thumb are you using for that? For > you techies, I've copied the manual description of this function below, > so you can how it works differently than a traditional limiter or > compressor. It's almost like a limiter, expander, and compressor all > wrapped up into one function. > > I can't seem to fine any good guidelines on the web either, regarding > look ahead peak limiting. This functions seems quite a bit more > sophisticated than standard compression or limiting. > > *********************************************************************** > * > ************** > Krispen Hartung > http://www.krispenhartung.com > info@krispenhartung.com > View improvisational / real-time looping videos: > http://www.myweb.cableone.net/chagstrom2/music/kris-hartung/ > catalogue.ht > m#videos > Interactive tour of my gear: http://www.boisemusicians.com/gear.htm > > > 5.4C DSP3:LOOK-AHEAD PEAK LIMITER > > The Look-Ahead Peak Limiter is designed to give you the ability to > limit > the highest peaks in a Track and simultaneously bring up the gain of > the > Track in order to maximize its level before creating a CD. This allows > you to "squeeze" that extra couple of decibels out of the dynamic > range, > without squashing your audio by hard compression or traditional > limiting. > > The limiter in the ML-9600 is very different than a traditional > limiter, > which is typically thought of as a compressor with a high ratio > setting. > By virtue of all-digital processing, the limiter is able to "look > ahead" > in time to see audio level peaks. This allows the limiter to begin > smoothly reducing the gain of the audio so that when the peak does > occur, it is limited to the desired value. In essence, the limiter > becomes a "perfect" limiter or one capable of attaining an > infinity-to-one gain reduction ratio. > > Another difference from a traditional limiter is that the "make-up" > gain > is automatically applied as a function of the threshold level. This > allows the limiter to act as a "maximizer", enabling you to bring your > Tracks very close to the maximum level allowed without clipping. > > The final difference in this limiter is that the final output level can > be fixed as a function of full-scale; i.e. the limiter has > infinity-to-one compression ratio with an extra gain stage at its > output. This allows you to decide what the peak output value of the > audio will be (-0.2dBFS, for instance). > > The Look-ahead peak limiter is perhaps best thought of as three > discrete > gain blocks: > > . The first gain block is dynamically adjusted so that its output level > never exceeds the threshold level (the "perfect" limiter). . The second > gain block adds make-up gain to the signal equal and opposite to the > threshold value (a threshold value of -10dBFS would have 10dB of > make-up > gain applied). . The third gain block is a "scaling" gain block; it > allows you to select the exact maximum output level (as a function of > full-scale). If this gain block were not there, the automatic make-up > gain would cause all signals that reached the threshold to equal 0dBFS. > > There are only three parameters in the limiter DSP block, so it is > extremely easy to set up and use. A detailed look at each of the > parameters follows. > > Threshold > > The Threshold parameter of the limiter sets the maximum output level > from the first gain stage. No gain reduction is applied as the signal > level approaches the threshold, but once it does, the limiter holds the > output of that stage to the threshold value. Make-up gain is applied to > the audio after it has been limited to the threshold value, so if audio > is playing while the threshold parameter is adjusted downward, the > output audio will appear to get louder. The threshold parameter is > adjustable from - 0dBFS to -65dBFS in 0.5dB increments. > > Output Level > > The Output Level parameter sets the absolute maximum output level from > the limiter, as a function of full-scale. A value of -0.1dB will limit > the output audio to no greater than -0.1dBFS, regardless of input level > or threshold setting. The output level parameter is adjustable from > 0dBFS to -65dBFS in 0.1dB increments. > > Release > > The release parameter functions exactly like its counterpart in the > compressor; it controls how long gain reduction is applied to the audio > after the input signal drops below the threshold. Release is adjustable > from 0 microseconds to 9.9 seconds. > > > > > Ronan Chris Murphy Veneto West www.venetowest.com On Feb 13, 2005, at 1:19 PM, Krispen Hartung wrote: > Well, I just received my Alesis Masterlink ML-9600 and I absolutely > love > this unit. It is a dream come true for live recording and > archiving...especially so because I can burn CDs of my performance > right > there on stage from the unit's hard drive. The recording quality is > immaculate and I really like the DSP, non-destructive editing features. > > > Anyway, I'd like some feedback from some of the other sound engineers > out there. I understand compression and limiting reasonably well (the > mathematics of compression, ratios, etc) and use it frequently in both > live and recording/sound engineering contexts. However, this Mastelink > has a "look-ahead peak limiting" function, which as the manual says, is > "designed to give you the ability to limit the highest peaks in a Track > and simultaneously bring up the gain of the Track in order to maximize > its level before creating a CD." After messing around with this, I am > very pleased with the results, but I'd like some thoughts what others > are using for output and threshold levels. First of all, I'm targeting > -3db or -4db as my max. output level, which is pretty much industry > standard these days for CDs, 16 bit, and 44.1K. Right now, I have the > output of the look-ahead peak limiter set to -4db and my threshold is > set to -3db. This seems to work well. Based on some guidelines I've > seen for limiters, threshold is typically set at the max. desired > output, and output perhaps just a sliver below this max. output, which > is what I've done here. I could have set both the same as well. > > What are some of you, who do your own mastering, using for limiting > setting guidelines? Better yet, if you are using a look-ahead limiter, > what setting guidelines or rules of thumb are you using for that? For > you techies, I've copied the manual description of this function below, > so you can how it works differently than a traditional limiter or > compressor. It's almost like a limiter, expander, and compressor all > wrapped up into one function. > > I can't seem to fine any good guidelines on the web either, regarding > look ahead peak limiting. This functions seems quite a bit more > sophisticated than standard compression or limiting. > > *********************************************************************** > * > ************** > Krispen Hartung > http://www.krispenhartung.com > info@krispenhartung.com > View improvisational / real-time looping videos: > http://www.myweb.cableone.net/chagstrom2/music/kris-hartung/ > catalogue.ht > m#videos > Interactive tour of my gear: http://www.boisemusicians.com/gear.htm > > > 5.4C DSP3:LOOK-AHEAD PEAK LIMITER > > The Look-Ahead Peak Limiter is designed to give you the ability to > limit > the highest peaks in a Track and simultaneously bring up the gain of > the > Track in order to maximize its level before creating a CD. This allows > you to "squeeze" that extra couple of decibels out of the dynamic > range, > without squashing your audio by hard compression or traditional > limiting. > > The limiter in the ML-9600 is very different than a traditional > limiter, > which is typically thought of as a compressor with a high ratio > setting. > By virtue of all-digital processing, the limiter is able to "look > ahead" > in time to see audio level peaks. This allows the limiter to begin > smoothly reducing the gain of the audio so that when the peak does > occur, it is limited to the desired value. In essence, the limiter > becomes a "perfect" limiter or one capable of attaining an > infinity-to-one gain reduction ratio. > > Another difference from a traditional limiter is that the "make-up" > gain > is automatically applied as a function of the threshold level. This > allows the limiter to act as a "maximizer", enabling you to bring your > Tracks very close to the maximum level allowed without clipping. > > The final difference in this limiter is that the final output level can > be fixed as a function of full-scale; i.e. the limiter has > infinity-to-one compression ratio with an extra gain stage at its > output. This allows you to decide what the peak output value of the > audio will be (-0.2dBFS, for instance). > > The Look-ahead peak limiter is perhaps best thought of as three > discrete > gain blocks: > > . The first gain block is dynamically adjusted so that its output level > never exceeds the threshold level (the "perfect" limiter). . The second > gain block adds make-up gain to the signal equal and opposite to the > threshold value (a threshold value of -10dBFS would have 10dB of > make-up > gain applied). . The third gain block is a "scaling" gain block; it > allows you to select the exact maximum output level (as a function of > full-scale). If this gain block were not there, the automatic make-up > gain would cause all signals that reached the threshold to equal 0dBFS. > > There are only three parameters in the limiter DSP block, so it is > extremely easy to set up and use. A detailed look at each of the > parameters follows. > > Threshold > > The Threshold parameter of the limiter sets the maximum output level > from the first gain stage. No gain reduction is applied as the signal > level approaches the threshold, but once it does, the limiter holds the > output of that stage to the threshold value. Make-up gain is applied to > the audio after it has been limited to the threshold value, so if audio > is playing while the threshold parameter is adjusted downward, the > output audio will appear to get louder. The threshold parameter is > adjustable from - 0dBFS to -65dBFS in 0.5dB increments. > > Output Level > > The Output Level parameter sets the absolute maximum output level from > the limiter, as a function of full-scale. A value of -0.1dB will limit > the output audio to no greater than -0.1dBFS, regardless of input level > or threshold setting. The output level parameter is adjustable from > 0dBFS to -65dBFS in 0.1dB increments. > > Release > > The release parameter functions exactly like its counterpart in the > compressor; it controls how long gain reduction is applied to the audio > after the input signal drops below the threshold. Release is adjustable > from 0 microseconds to 9.9 seconds. >