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Wow good thoughts too, Jon. This remember me of a book I read online called "how music really works" (http://www.completechords.com). This explained in easy terms how a song should be a journey, how to use tension, to come back to the main cadence, how the scale were constructed,.... If I remember well there was also a chapter on how our brain is receptive to music and tension even before we were educated. I used mainly the book's chase charts to complete pop/rock songs at the time but I think this is completely in line with this thread. Unfortunately the online version seems to have been removed. How I love this list! It's just sometimes too difficult to explain in my limited English :-). Ben. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jon Southwood" <jsouthwood@gmail.com> > To: <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com> > Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 9:28 PM > Subject: Re: zen and the fluent music > > > Lots of interesting thoughts on looping in a > through-composed(/improvised) manner. A couple further thoughts, > expressed far less poetically,particularly regarding statements about > rounded forms (e.g. ABA, ABA', ABACA, etc.): > > In Western Classical Music of the so-called common practice era (ca. > 1685-1890), it is true that probably 95-99% of small pieces, or > movements within larger works are constructed in some sort of rounded > manner (by rounded, I mean "bringing back the A section material to > round-out the form"). However, rarely is (or should) a dance suite or > a sonata or a symphony "parted-out" such that one only hears a single > movement and nothing else. It is far more rare to find a large scale > form like the symphony or even a suite where the whole is constructed > to be rounded. In other words, the final movement of the symphony > rarely brings back the primary theme of the first movement. (I am > certainly not claiming it never happens, though.) > > To perhaps amend the analogies and make some other points: > > 1) The movements within a larger work act as in a similar manner to > scenes in a play or a movie, or even a scene or chapter in a novel. > The movements deal with a specific theme in a specific setting, often > related in some way to the themes used throughout the other movements. > A good symphony has a balance of ties to and development away from > material in various movements. > > 2) The analogy between a piece of music and a photograph or painting > is strained by the fact that a piece of music must move through time > in order to be experienced. When viewing a painting or a photograph or > a sculpture or some other object, one can spend one's own time with > the experience of the work. I can look at one part of a painting, then > move back to view the whole, and then move to another section of the > painting, perhaps focus on a part I've already seen, making > connections between the parts or not. This is not true with a piece of > music. With certain exceptions, each piece of music has it's own > time-span during which it must be experienced. As time progresses, we > don't have the luxury of pausing and rewinding or fast-forwarding to > attempt to experience the piece in a non-linear way. In fact, even if > the piece is constructed in a non-linear manner, we must experience it > in a linear way. No matter how complex the form of a Stravinsky work, > or the non-linear DJ-style glitch looping of Andre Lafosse, we > experience it linearly. > > 3) It is precisely this linear nature of music which makes the role of > repetition within the development of Western music so important. It is > certainly not the act of a lazy composer looking for the easy way out. > If one spends any time looking at the sketchbooks of Beethoven, it > becomes quite clear that even the slightest variation of a basic > motive within a piece was subject to countless revisions. Repetition, > either direct or varied, aids in the comprehension of a piece of > music. It is very similar to the Taoist principle of "from one thing, > know 10,000 things." In other words, with even a varied repetition of > a motive or theme, we are able to comprehend that motive or theme, > since we can go from what we know (i.e. what we remember of the > motive/theme from earlier in the piece) to what we don't know (i.e. > the new form of that motive/theme). > > 4) Repetition is helpful in creating drama and surprise within a piece > of music. Even if we take hundreds of works as our set of varied > repetitions (i.e. how many pieces end with a V-I harmonic progression, > implied or explicity?), then that repetition gives us a chance to > dial-up the tension at the right moment by playing with the listener's > expectation upon hearing the V...if we shift gears and follow it with > the VI (or vi, depending on how you like your roman numerals), we have > the classic "deceptive cadence" which really dials up the tension to > be later released by the so-called "authentic" V-I cadence. This is > part of the difficulty of composing music that does not follow the > harmonic and melodic grammar of music so frequently > heard---repetition, however, aids in defining the grammar for a > particular piece. This can be, also, the difficulty of > through-composed/improvised music: it's as if an entirely new set of > characters are introduced with each new scene, with few or no > characters held-over or brought back from earlier scenes. Granted, to > the specialist listener, these new characters may be heard (seen) as > the same characters in various levels of disguise, but to the average > (and often the above average) listener they bear little or no > resemblance, leaving them confused. Confusion is an uncomfortable > feeling which often leads to a dissatisfaction toward the piece of > music which left them in that state. At the very least, it creates a > tension that most listeners will want resolved. > > I make these observations/statements as one who has composed a number > of works that range from maximal repetition to minimal repetition, > although usually with some sort of 'rounding' to the form. > > Thanks for helping me think about something other than work for a > little bit this morning/afternoon. > > Cheers, > > Jon Southwood > > > > On 7/10/05, Matthias Grob <matthias@grob.org> wrote: >> it seems to me that far over 90% of the ever played music ended in >> the same theme as it started in, because its basically showing a >> single picture. >> There may be some dynamic, even a story in the middle, a natural way >> to show a picture is to show its total first, then go into details, >> back to the total, some other detail .... and close at the total. >> > [snip] >> wants some ABACA... structure... probably a reminder of old dance >> styles and polite forms... and simply a help for the memory... easy >> composing... ? >> > ___________________________________________________________________________ Appel audio GRATUIT partout dans le monde avec le nouveau Yahoo! 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