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Re: walnut drawing analogy/looping(?)
Title: Re: walnut drawing
yes, i actually find that the process for creating art (visual)
the same as the process for creating music. the mediums are
the tools are different, but the process is the same. it's
that the 2 have strayed so far in the past century--discussion w/
art historian prof in grad school about his trying to have a
prof in art and one in music to talk about the sameness of both
disciplines. he told me the music prof thought it was a bad idea,
music is a discipline w/ rules etc and art was not. guess he only
differences. for me it's the same. unfortunately for me, i've
been drawing since i was 5, and i didn't start playing guitar until i
was 19, and didn't start looping until last year, but i guess the
newness/challenge is what is fun.
ps-i should qualify, many might not call what i make as
"music"--i usually think i'm making art/noise/sound/ and
finally music...oh well...or perhaps i should
just say "i do mindless guitar wanking"...
Maybe we'll twist this one back around to
topic yet: I realized after I sent that response to Richard's
message that he was talking (I think) more specifically about avoiding
cliche sounds-- that was the connection to the whole Fripp signal
chain discussion-- rather than cliches in playing content.
It's totally on the philosophical side of things, but the connection
to looping I see is still the same, and it just has to do with being
authentic as opposed to automatic-- with the sounds we choose, and
with what we play.
I like a lot the idea you've posed of going even further, beyond the
thing itself to one's experience of the thing-- that actually does a
good job expressing what I'm trying to say. For example, taking
someone's sound and how that effects you as a listener, and then
translating that emotional response into your own sound.
ghost 7/ Oranje
on 11/26/02 10:29 AM, Scott Hansen at firstname.lastname@example.org
avoiding cliches is good (in art and music).
dan-your drawing analogy is good, but to counteract your teachers
advice in drawing:
i believe the teacher was trying to address your ability question
perception and how you deal w/ abstraction and representation.
the abstract lines on paper worked in a certain way will somehow
the "perceived" world around us. the instructor was just
getting you to
look harder: do you see lines around the walnut that define the
do you see texture/value that give the walnut volume. or in
do you see how the light/volume hits the different planes and make
walnut 3-dimensional, etc.
my beginning drawing teacher told me way back in 1983, and he was
a chair as the example: "we already have the chair, i don't need
to see the
chair anymore, what I want to see is your interpretation of the chair"
my MFA in drawing/painting 2 cents for the day.
i have no idea how that ties in w/ signal processing or looping.
The last part of Richard's post, where he talks about
avoiding cliche, reminds me of something a drawing teacher I once had
Let's say you're drawing a walnut and you want to draw the shell. You
can start just automatically making a bunch of lines that you think
will represent the texture of the nutshell. But are you really
looking, and are you really seeing what the light on the surface of
the shell is doing? Are you really being conscious about each mark you
make on the paper being an attempt to communicate your true visual
experience of the object you're drawing?
I feel the same logic applies to playing. I definitely get into
automatic states where I am basically playing cliches of my own way of
expressing-- this happens especially when I'm tired or don't really
feel like playing. The only way I've found to avoid these automatic
states is to do what amounts to a meditation where all thought between
you and your instrument (e.g. whatever far-out rig you play) is
redirected back into the instrument and the music itself. It feels to
me like digging down and down and down in a moebius-strip like
fashion, or like those celtic designs where the animals eat their own
tails. I'm curious to know how other people experience this
ghost 7/ Oranje
on 11/25/02 8:05 PM, Richard Zvonar at email@example.com wrote:
At 7:43 PM -0500 11/26/02, Butch wrote:
>God, is this thread EVER going to die?
This thread . . . . could go in any of several directions, but
the most productive
might be to try to identify how certain musical "gestures"
our common language, how and when these became part of the
tools we use, and how we can avoid sinking into endless and