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Mark Hamburg wrote: > On the other hand, this same bass player would tend to look at me with a > sort of "what? are you kidding?" look when I'd program in drum loops >playing > a cycle of 2 against a cycle of 3 against a cycle of 5 etc.. > By the way: When people on this list talk polyrhythms, do you generally >mean > multiple ways of dividing a single bar of music or multiple bar lengths? The term "polyrhythm" certainly is a loaded one. I suppose in its widest sense "polyrhythm" can mean any contrasting rhythmic patterns in music. So technically, triplets played over a backbeat could be considered to be polyrhythmic. Of course this is such a standard pattern that no one thinks twice about using it. Another standard practice, as Mark mentioned, is dividing the accents within a single bar. For example, breaking a bar of 4/4 into three groupings of eighth notes as 3/3/2 or 2/3/3 or 3/2/3. Again, an everyday occurrence. The next level of polyrhythms would be along the line of "compound" rhythms like 6/8, where the count is divided into two equal groups of three. Generally you'd tap your foot on the 1 and the 4, which creates a nice tension between a feeling of duple and triple meters. This also occurs in 9/8 and 12/8 rhythms when they're evenly divided into groups of three. For instance, Irish "slip jigs" in 9/8 still have very much of a waltz-time feeling, being three equal groups of 3. Another term that you sometimes see for "polyrhythm" is "cross rhythms." This is more what Mark means by the "cycle of 2 against a cycle of three against a cycle of 5." Let's start a little bit simpler, with 4 against 5. In this instance, you would have 2 contrasting time signatures occurring simultaneously. Although this can be achieved by a single player, it's easier to visualize this polyrhythm as a duet. Drummer A will be playing in 4/4, accenting only the 1. Drummer B plays in 5/4, also accenting only the 1. What happens is that after the first four beats the rhythms go out of phase with each other, so that you're hearing each drummers' accents on 1, but they're occurring at different times. After 20 beats (four measures of 5/4 and five measures of 4/4) the rhythms will again coincide on "1" (the twenty-first beat) and then begin to diverge again. This too creates an interesting tension between the two separate time signatures that resolves on beat 21. My training is in North Indian classical music, where this type of polyrhythm (or cross rhythm) is very common. In Hindi this is called "layakari" which literally means "rhythm work." Part of the reason for its popularity is that there is no harmony in Indian music, only rhythm and melody, so this is one way to add variety to the music to keep it more interesting. There are many ways to do this. For instance, in plucked stringed instruments like sitar or sarod, there are a set of openly-tuned rhythm strings ("chikari") which are used to create various rhythmic patterns. In an extended performance, one would play a long solo section before joining together with tabla to play compositions. In this solo section of three movements ("alap-jod-jhalla") the second two movements are exclusively rhythmic. Although there is no set meter in these sections, a pulse is present and the rhythms become increasingly more dense over time. Again, in order to keep things interesting, the soloist will vary the stoking patterns using cross rhythms. For instance, a typical pattern across 8 counts would be: 3/3/2. This can get doubled into 3/3/2/3/3/2 or further divided into many variations, e.g., 3/3/3/3/2/2 or 2/2/3/3/3/3 or 3/2/3/2/3/3 etc. Generally this is done by systematically playing through a large number of permutations, usually in a logically flowing order. Using one or two counts of silence within the pattern is still another way to create tension and maintain interest. After playing any number of increasingly dense rhythmic patterns, the solo section comes to a frenzied conclusion. After this, the soloist begins to play precomposed material (with continuing improvisations) in a strict time signature ("tala") along with the tabla player. This too leads to much polyrhythmic interplay. Generally what happens is that the tabla player maintains a steady stereotypical rhythmic pattern (called "theka") over which the soloist plays the precomposed melody and variations. At a certain point the soloist will begin the "layakari" usually starting with simple cross rhythms. In North Indian music the most common rhythmic cycle is 16 beats (called "tintal"). The tabla player marks out the 16 beats (subdivided into four equal groups of 4). So the soloist may begin by playing patterns of 3 against those sixteen beats, similar to the "triplets over a backbeat" mentioned above. The next round of rhythmic interplay usually goes to a more complex pattern, such as 5 against 16. In actual practice this becomes more like 5 against 4. However, instead of having a perfectly interlocking and meshing rhythm, usually the soloist will "tie up" the loose ends by filling in the remaining beats. For example, if the soloist is playing in a 5 against 4 pattern within the 16 beat cycle, he will play the contrasting pattern up to beat 30, then play the remaining two beats normally (to round out to 32 beats, i.e., 2 cycles of 16). One of the most remarkable performers of this style of playing is the great santur (hammered dulcimer) player, Pandit Shivkumar Sharma. Pandit Sharma had extensive training as a tabla player before choosing the santur as his preferred instrument, and this certainly shows in his elegant, precise, mathematical layakari. I've seen him perform brilliant variations of 4, 5, 6, 7 and 9 beats against a rhythmic cycle of 11 beats (itself subdivided into four/four/one and a half/one and a half !) as well as all of these against a cycle of 15 beats. Needless to say, he routinely plays such cross rhythms against the more common (for Indian music) cycles of 7, 10, 12, 14, etc. I think what impressed me most about all of this was that he was playing melodically as well -- following the rules of the raga, while coming up with these dazzling crossrhythms. The tabla player gets his turn too. (Or as James Brown would say, "Give the drummer some!"). The soloist will cue the tabla player to perform a solo by playing the precomposed melody repeatedly. What happens now is that the roles are reversed -- the melody keeps basic time for the drummer to improvise. Often at this point the tabla player will play precomposed material from the solo tabla repertoire. However, a sensitive tabla player might want to reinforce the idea of layakari, and so will begin to perform his variations on the rhythmic interplay. Sometimes he will amplify on what the soloist has just played, at other times he may begin a new cross rhythm. In a spirited performance, one might see a very taut back-and-forth exchange of polyrhythmic soli between the main instrumentalist and tabla player. In solo tabla performance there is also a large degree of polyrhythmic play. Usually there will be an accompanying melody ("lehera") which serves to keep time. The tabla player will display various cross rhythms against the main cycle, in the same manner as noted above. Some tabla players have also developed more "isometric" polyrhythms. That is, they will play 2 contrasting meters simultaneously -- but not crossing bar lines. In other words, the duration of time for the 2 meters is the same. I've seen one phenomenal tabla player perform a solo simultaneously in "jhaptal" (10 beats) and rupak tal (7 beats). What was most amazing about this was that the 10 beats fit perfectly into the same amount of time as the 7 beats. This obviously depends on compressing the larger time signature slightly to occupy the same amount of time as the smaller. It was mind-boggling to hear this kind of manual time-stretching. Getting back to what Mark mentioned about having three or more contrasting time cycles: I've been working on this type of polyrhythm for some time, for instance playing 3 against 4 against 5. The same "falling out of phase" occurs here as well, except that it gets compounded by one additional factor, so that it will take longer for all the cycles to meet at "1." This occurs at the "least common denominator" for all of the cycles. For example, in 3 vs 4 vs 5, the rhythms come together after 60 beats to resolve at beat 61, which will be the "1" for all three cycles (3 x 4 x 5 = 60). My earliest attempts at this sort of polyrhythm were miserable and unlistenable, due to trying to cram too much information into the rhythms. It's much better to leave some space in each one, so that you can hear the contrasting patterns that arise from the juxtaposition, rather than a jumbled mess. The EDP (to get back on topic) is a wonderful tool for this type of polyrhythm. For instance, Record one measure of 4 beats, then Multiply by three. Overdub a 3-beat pattern against the three measures of 4. Now Multiply again to 60 (easier than ever to do in Loop IV -- thanks Kim, Matthias et al. for this godsend!) and Overdub a pattern of 5 beats against the existing polyrhythm. It takes a bit of getting used to. I personally like the off-kilter patterns that arise from this type of polyrhythm, as well as the feeling of "Where the hell is '1' !?!" I don't have any experience with polyrhythms from African, Afro-Cuban, or Brazilian drumming traditions. I'm wondering if some of the percussionists on the list like Dennis, Jon or Rick could share some insight on how rhythms are crossed in these traditions and/or any personal tips and tricks they have on polyrhythms? James