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A wonderful post by Ted. Thanks. Warning, after reading what I wrote below, I noticed it's somewhat disjointed and aimless, and prolly waaaayyy too long, but I didn't have time to shorten it up. Anway, what follows is some further observations and thoughts on the matter. The majority of my performing is in bars, but very rarely as a looper. My primary live performance outlet is with an Eastern-Iowa-based Celtic folk/pub-tunes band called Wylde Nept. When I auditioned for them almost 2 years ago, I knew I was walking into a sweet deal--over the 10 years that they had existed, they had carved out a niche that allowed them to play traditional Irish and Scottish tunes (not *all* about drinking) but also allowed them the ability to play original songs as well. It's quite interesting to see how this band has thrived while being the only local band to not have Mustang Sally or Messin' with the Kid in its playlist. (I wish I was exaggerating.) Anyway, I was prompted to bring this up because of Ted's message. When I originally set out to re-enter the live performance game, I'd had visions of forming a jazz/funk trio that would rely heavily on looping as well as doing soundscape performances at any of the bevy of coffee houses around here. I had naively thought that people went out for the same reason I did: to hear live performances of good music. The more I observed the crowds, the more I realized how wrong I was. The crowds I observed were much more interested in watching the ESPN feed or chatting up some fine-looking human specimen or w-h-y than actually listening to the music. Sometimes, though very rarely, they danced. When I played my first bar gig with Wylde Nept, I couldn't believe what I heard/saw with that crowd. They were an audience, not a crowd of barflies and meat marketeers. They sang along; they followed along with the 'audience participation' ("A Mighty Wind" pegs this, btw); they danced; they even sat in relative silence for the slow, melancholy love songs. I've also had the fortune of meeting bar owners and booking guys who *seem* to be interested in preserving live music. One bar owner in western Illinois even made the comment that he runs a dance club so that he can keep his live music venue open. Oddly, it's one of maybe 3 bars/clubs that have live music in a metro area that probably has well over 300k people. Yeah, it's no Boston or Chicago, but that's still a lot of people to be served by only 3 live music venues. And he still has to run that dance club to keep the live music bar open. Sad. As for the looping performances and finding actual audiences, I've really only found new music concerts geared toward 'classical' or 'art' or 'concert' music (whatever you wish to call it) to be appropriate around here. In fact, the only live looping I've done in the past 2 years has been in that type of setting. I'm sure the fact that I also regularly write for chamber groups helps me get live looping pieces onto concerts and into festivals. It's the only performance situation that consistently provides an *audience*. For those of you who are tired of playing for the meat marketeers who seem annoyed to chat up their conquests over the din of your music, perhaps you should check for some sort of new music forum in your area. For example, I am co-chair of the Iowa Composers Forum. Every year, we host at least one festival--usually a couple days of concerts, discussions, and presentations; the concerts feature only works by member composers. As one of the hosts of the most recent festival, I can assure you that composers who provide performers for their works get special consideration in programming. As such, performing it yourself immediately gives you a leg up on the poor saps who submit brass quintets and string quartets and mixed septets. ICF is an independent organization, and there are many others around the US. There are also a number of statewide and regional chapters of the American Composers Forum. Dr. Zvonar, it appears, is a member of the Los Angeles chapter of ACF. There is also the Society of Composers, Inc. (SCI), although despite a name change they are still geared much more toward composers associated with educational institutions (they began life as the American Society of University Composers---Zappa fans may recognize that name). The downside to performing your own works at these type of forum events? Often, you get one slot that is more or less time-limited, and is intended to be used to present a single piece. Granted, that single piece could have multiple movements, but you're not going to squeeze in an hour-long soundscapes set. Depending on who is hosting the festival and/or coordinating the concert, improvisations may or may not fly. We're hosting a mini-festival this coming Saturday that has one concert (along with a master class with Peter Schickele). On this concert there will be an improvised piece, but I can count the number of improvisations featured on ICF concerts since I've joined on one hand. The biggest potential downside, however, is the money. Depending on the policies of the group and/or the budget of the concert/festival, composers who perform their own work may be doing so gratis. Also, it is certainly not customary to have a SWAG table in the lobby for after the concert. So, you're not gonna make much/any money playing at those concerts. But you'll have an attentive audience, most of whom with ears that far surpass those meat-marketeers who keep shouting for you to turn it down or at least have the decency to play Mustang Sally. You'll also have the opportunity to network with musicians and composers who share stylistic interests (trust me, they'll let you know) which may lead to future paying gigs. Our concert this Saturday is the direct result of wanting to provide two very talented pianists with a paid gig. As to Ted's rather bleak premonition about the future of live music...I can only hope he proves to be wrong. Cheers, Jon Southwood