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> none taken, kevin. an excellent point.... except.... I've never really regarded photography as (ok, arrogant again perhaps) ART /in the same sense/ as musical composition or, say, painting. it's art, alright, but it's still just snapping away until you get a good one, isn't it? :-) > I think if you were to replace photography with painting in y'r analogy, the argument would be weaker. > thus, the photographer is analogous to a recording engineer or maybe producer in that he captures what is already there, albeit from a more interesting angle than you or I could have managed, & with some interesting filters or whatever. > whereas y'r painter has had to start from scratch. ditto y'r composer. That's funny, my first example was actually painting, but since I'm a photographer and not a painter, I thought I'd be safer talking about what I know intimately. Of course I have to disagree with your take on photography, but I guess it all depends on how you approach it (and there are many many types of phtography, even the things people snap with their cell phones are considered photographs). As for myself, I consider my photography far more of an art than my music so what can I say. I've never understood the appeal of taking pictures of people or landscapes though so I'm probably not in the mainstream of photographic art anyway. I could go on and on about the merits and intentions of photography as an art but I think that would be out of place on this list. > anyway, my interest in this subject is not borne out of wanting more appreciation for the labour that goes into my band's outpourings. not at all. it's because my own perspective is skewed- by being a musician, by being an engineer, by being innately curious about how things work & why. > I am fascinated by, & somewhat envious of, those who can appreciate music without being the slightest bit bothered about how it got there. > my opinions in this area will vary with mileage. Personally I find it really annoying when I can identify particular patches or equipment sounds in other peoples music (you'd think I'd be over DX-7 bell sounds by now but no, everytime I hear one its a pavlovian kind of response and not a good one). This is a sure fire way to be ejected from any actual appreciation of the music and into a completely different head space. Kevin How amazing, how amazing! Hard to comprehend that Nonsentient beings expound Dharma. It simply cannot be heard with the ear, But when sound is heard with the eye, Then it is understood. - Tung-shan (807-869) Sound and Vision: http://www.minds-eye.org