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I think it probably does too- which is why I was using a term an average music listener might use rather than what we would use to identify it. Besides, the listener is who we are hired to perform for in many instances. I don't really understand the phrase 'creative music' though, since there is a lot of creativity in developing the perfect pop or jazz song too, just not in the same way. I think for 'average music listeners' or 'unsuspecting subjects', they 'expect' to hear something they can identify with (for better or worse) when they walk into a venue that isn't specifically for music (like a coffeehouse or gallery). I am sure everyone has had to tailor their performance for the venue, or at least play the really weird stuff for later in the night. And then, are we playing the weirder stuff because it is artistic expression (letting the caged animal out), or we just like to freak people out (that's fun sometimes too)? Some people don't loop live at all because they are sick of all of the expectation, sick of music conventions, and just like to play with their toys, not caring if people 'get it.' That's cool too. Dave Eichenberger http://www.hazardfactor.com/collectives > > I prefer all those to "weird"....the word weird says more > about the listener than the performer....the word I prefer to > all of them is "creative music"....music that is creative in > that it is charting or navigating lesser known territories. >