Re: Rhythmic Randomness vs. Melodic Randomness

[Rick Walker <looppool@cruzio.com>]

Per wrote:
"I'm still finding it hard to relate to that. Maybe you're view is a
bit colored from some particular musicians you have been playing with?
Obviously not very good musicians then, because I'm sure many would
agree with me that the rhythm is way more important to master, than
the tonal side, if you want to play the least expressive. "False"
notes can still contain a meaningfull musical message as long as they
are delivered with a good timing. And vice versa, perfect pitch in
melody playing doesn't help a shit if your timing sucks. This is so
basic that I suspect I'm missing some part of this discussion?"

I'm with you in all of this, Per and I realize that I haven't been 
articulate enough about
my feelings about all of this.

Quickly, let me say that using the term Randomness in this thread was a 
poor choice of words
and I apologize for it............obviously a group of randomly placed 
notes within a grid of
16th notes is just as non-random as a randomly distribution of pitches 
that fit into
a grid of one scale or mode.

So..........................to answer your question as best as I can:

Without going too deeply into the subject (which would essentially be 
the book that
I'm beginning to write on my observations of world rhythmic cultures and 
how to
'grok' them)  let me talk for just a second about to basic rhythmic 
approaches to the
rhythm world that seem to be found in our international live looping 
community
(with the notable exception of aleatoric,  non-rhythmic,  avant garde,  
and experimental musics
which eschew rhythmic repetition in a 'groove' sensibity.

There are several more approaches but I wanted to talk about the 
differences that I see in these
two approaches................both of which are heavily effected by 
current live looping programming
paradigms (in software and hardware).

The Polyrhythmic Groove approach (and by the use of the word Polyrhythm 
I don't mean even
2s against 3s against 5s against 7s or whatever which is the normal 
useage of the term-----I just mean several different rhythmic
structures occurring simultaneously as in music of West, Central, East 
and South Africa and the
African Diaspora cultures influenced by these original approaches.

In this paradigm which is basically ritual and dance oriented, there are 
many interlocking rhythms that have a distinct relationship to each other.
They tend to be defined by each other and they tend to either contrast 
or accentuate main syncopative feels in the rhythms.

All the American/African Diaspora styles of pop music come from this 
paradigm:   Blues, Jazz, Swing, Rhythm & Blues, Soul, Funk, Rock-a-billy,
Country and Western,  Rock and Roll (both early black Rock and Roll and 
later white Rock and Roll that emerged from it) and different regional
styles like Zydeco,  Norteno,  Ra Ra,  Salsa,  Samba,  Steel drum music, 
et. al..

Most of these traditions involved several drummers, drumming with 
interlocking patterns.   Even the modern day drumset which has spread to 
the entire globe with the
ubiquity of guitars, basses and electronic keyboards)  was originally 
played by 2 or 3 drummers from the European/Turkish originated Marching 
Band traditions.
When there are variations,  they tend to us simple forms and the purpose 
of the variations is to make the 'groove' of the original rhythm stronger.
In other words,  the variations tend to support the existing rhythmic 
sycnopation as opposed to purposefully eschewing it (like in free jazz).

This paradigm results in dancing grooves that are very unique in the way 
they effect the nervous system (and in the dance that results).

As an example,  if I play a Rock and Roll Rhythm  like this:
(where ever symbol represents a 16th note      X = hi hat .K = Kick 
drum      S =  Snare drum   * =  a rest)

X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*
K***S*****K*S***   

*note= cut and paste this rhythm into a fixed font like Courier if you 
have trouble reading it here at L.D.

and I suddenly throw in one single 16th note off beat on Snare Drum   
like this:
X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*
K***S**S**K*S***

Your suddenly have a funk rhythm that has a completely different feel 
than the original rhythm.
What this means is that you have to be very very careful about adding 
notes to your groove
for fear of losing the original 'feel' or groove of the piece.

One of the dominant arranging approaches uses what the Afro Cubans call, 
the concept of 'CRUZADO'.
In other words ,  if you lay a rhythm on top of a preexisting sycopative 
groove that contains members
not found in the original groove,  you are said to be 'CRUZADO'  (or 
crossed).
In the case of the Clave (the two bar rhythms that define a lot of Afro 
Cuban music this causes a conflict
that really interferes with the feeling of the original rhythm

In this paradigm,  one needs to eschew CRUZADO rhythms in order to stay 
rhythmically consistent
or else one needs to use one or two bar repeating (and fairly 
non-syncopative) rhythms to contrast
already existing syncopative 'base' rhythms.   These rhythms I call 
'FRAMING RHYTHMS'
are intended to contrast original SYNCOPATIVE RHYTHMS with out causing a 
CRUZADO situation.
You can think of the swing rhythm on hi hat,  or the backbeat on snare 
in pop music as typical examples
of FRAMING RHYTHMS that contrast the existing rhythms of the original 
sycopative groove (generally, but
not always found in the kick drum patterns).

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

The other paradigm,   I take from Indonesian, Malaysian and other , what 
I call, 'Gong' Cultures.
In these rhythmic schemes different instruments punctuate the music in 
CYCLIC ways rather than in SYNCOPATIVE ways
So many notes occur in the rhythmic arrangement that all of the notes of 
the "SYNCOPATIVE RESOLUTION"  (a term defined as
the lowest common denominator or smallest note value of the 'groove' of 
the music---this exludes things like 32nd note
and faster 'embellishements')  that all notes are played.

This causes what the Indonesians call  'IRAMA'.....................or a 
rhythmic underpinning that is so full and constant that it makes for a 
percolative
web over which other instruments can play more langorously.

Okay,  so if I were to take the whole rhythmic world and put it into 
these two camps (just a stupid thing to do, really,  as we haven't 
talked about
LINEAR SYNCOPATIVE rhythmic paradigms like those found in the Near and 
Middleastern (and all the countries colonized by those
cultures in past history like Eastern Europe,  Malaysian, et. al.) and 
LINEAR POLYRHYTHMIC  paradigms like those of India
and NON SYCOPATIVE SHAMANIC paradigms like those of the Native America 
Tribes of North and South America, the Inuit, Sami,
Australian Aboriginal and Papua Guinea rhythmic 
cultures.....................

............but for the sake of argument,   let's say we just had these 
two paradigms..............................

randomly replacing notes   or randomly generating notes using live 
looping devices will work great with the
IRAMA paradigm rhythmic approach and reeks havoc with the CRUZADO 
paradigm rhythmic approach.

WHAT I WISH I COULD HEAR MORE OF FROM LIVE LOOPERS, SPECIFICALLY
(give this approach)

So,  though,   I think much great music can come from the 'all notes 
played and play over the top of it'   approach which seem
fairly easy to generate with Multiply and Replace functions  I think it 
takes less knowledge of the way rhythm effects us
to use this technique..................and it seems vastly more 
prevalent from a lot of the loopers I hear.

The tendency is to "play up and over the rhythms" we generate as opposed 
to being really cognizant of the way
our subsequent rhythmic playing works with the original rhythms and 
effects the listener.

Using the CRUZADO method calls for much more  carefully crafting of 
rhythms (or use of replace and copy functions)  so that they form an 
interlocking but still syncopative approach.

Now , because of the aforementioned hegemony of melody and harmonic 
arrangement over rhythmic arrangement that has come from Western Classical
music,   the IRAMA method is a simpler way to enter into more complex 
(or just simply solidly grooving minimalistic) rhythmic grooves.

I, would just like to hear more sophisticated (or even simpler grooving) 
variation in the approaches..............utilizing more of the concepts
of the African/African Diaspora paradigm, the Middle/Near Eastern 
paradigm and the Indian/Pakistani  paradigms (which I haven't even 
talked about here
for the purpose of brevity.

Okay,    I hope that explains better what my initial complaint was 
about,  Per.

Let me know if I was unclear about presenting what I'm trying to get 
across....................I've been feeling exceedingly bleery lately
so I apologize if what I say doesn't follow or read well.