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Re: Re: Latency in looping path

Hi Anthony,

I see now what you mean, you are mocking up a continuous music bed on
the mixer and then you want to cut in segments of it into a looper so
you can prepare new audio on the mixer to add? Of course the two
streams must be in sync then. I know that at least the RME interfaces
can be MIDI controlled, but I'm not sure how fast a channel mute is
applied in the Fireface Mixer and I have not used that feature myself.
If you could assign the same MIDI event to switch between muted/open
on the RME and for controlling the looper you might have a chance...
but thinking about that gives me bad feeling in my stomach ;-)
Probably it would be better to handle all that routing and muting in
Live. *IF* you are syncing Live you may look into the "MIDI Clopck
Sync Delay" control in its preferences, just to trim the mixer and
Live to run together. But be aware that Live in itself doesn't provide
rock steady timing because it isn't a DAW by design but rather a live
remixing tool (if offering solid timing all the live routing etc in
performance would be too slow for the real world). And MIDI Clock
isn't stable either, because the slaving device has to constantly
speed up or slow down to adjust its tempo.

I revisited the previous posts in this thread and wasn't able to find
out where you are taking the sync master clock from? In case you are
syncing Ableton Live (i.e. running it as a slave following MIDI Clock
or MTC) the entire latency compensation system of Live's doesn't work.
>From this comes that the Looper plugin will also differ in timing
compared to your mixer audio stream and you will experience an un-sexy
bump in timing when muting the original audio to let in the loop. A
solution can be to use a third-party looping plugin like Mobius that
in itself does latency compensation; moving new layers added to the
loop a little bit in time for the first playback round (has to match
the AD/DA latency of the full system, but you can dial in latency
compensation manually by ear in Mobius).

Also, it is not clear what you are meaning when writing
"quantization"? In looping quantization means a given command is to be
applied to the looper at a given point in time after you have actually
pushed the button/pedal. But in a DAW quantization means moving a
recorded audio file playback in time.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen

On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 4:50 PM,  <info@riversonicstudios.com> wrote:
> ...the problem is Per I need to somehow mute the original signal once 
> the loop starts playing back! thats why everything apart from the sax 
> and vox are being rooted through
> Abelton so that the original signal (with at least the drums) can be 
> muted back into the mix at the very point the loop finishes playing. I 
> do not have any midi muting on my Mackie LM3204 ! ..
> or would it be possible to mute that copied signal you are talking about 
> at the interface via a midi message?... Also if the loop is already 
> leaving the computer with latency surely the copied original signal is 
> not going to be in time
> with the loop when one converts back to the original signal?... The more 
> I think about it the more I suspect I will have to buy a separate 
> hardware looper like the Roland RC-300 or maybe TC Helicon VoiceLOve 
> Touch 2 which has quantise
> looping on board which I have seen syncing with Abelto perfectly! Too 
> bad my current VoiceLive2 doesnt have the quantise feature the new Voice 
> Touch does though I have been told the Voice Live 3 is imminent!... I 
> was about to get the Touch 2 but I will wait for the Voice Liove 3 that 
> may well be launched at Frankfurt Messe in a few weeks time. I have 
> tried fiddling with the sample/latency option in Abletons preferences 
> reducing the buffer size down to 128 samples which does reduce the 
> latency but increases the odd "digital click"! I even tried running the 
> return signal through one of my old Apogee Track 2 convertors. 
> Admittedly I have to use a cheep little device that converts the SPDIF 
> into optical to reach the MacBook Pros digital input, hoping that if the 
> A/D conversion was done by the Apogee it would reduce the latency- no 
> such luck! Going in analog or digital doesnt seem to be the culprit.. 
> its as Reiner says: its the crunching going on in the MacBook and 
> Ableton that is to blame. BTW I am not running ant fx in Ableton at all: 
> only the Looping plug in. I would use the simple track capture /playback 
> feature but there is no way of having it quantise without giving it a 
> pre determined roll before it records (1 bar, half a bar, quarter, 
> sixteenths etc). The Looper plugin does the looping in perfect sync.
>>---- Original Message ----
>>From: Per Boysen <perboysen@gmail.com>
>>To: "Loopers-Delight" <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com>
>>Sent: Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 5:50 PM
>>Subject: Re: Latency in looping path
>>Yes, of course a decent audio interface helps with the latency issue!
>>On the level of interfaces you are mentioning there is also the
>>possibility to copy the audio stream coming from your physical mixing
>>desk directly to the the audio interface's output without passing the
>>software (Ableton Live). This is called "direct monitoring" and has
>>zero latency. You don't really need to listen to the mixer desk stuff
>>THROUGH Ableton Live do you? What you need form Live is only the
>>output of whatever you snag as a loop and maybe effects like reverb
>>and delay that you add to your mixing desk stream.
>>If you run Ableton as a sync master latency in MIDI instruments driven
>>by MIDI clips/loops as well as Live's Loopoer plugin should be
>>compensated for. If you run Live as a sync slave to something else
>>this latency compensation does not work ('cause not even Live can look
>>into the future and read your mind) and you need to be carful not to
>>use and latency inducing plugins within the session.
>>Greetings from Sweden
>>Per Boysen
>>On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Antony Hequet <antony.hequet@yahoo.fr> 
>>> the RME UFX or Fireface or any interface RE has allows a very low 
>>> latency
>>> because the audio does not have to go thru the MAc before it is sent 
>>> tot he
>>> mix or any submix you have, unless you are using the processing within
>>> Ableton to enhance your sound sources.
>>> Antony Hequet
>>> ________________________________
>>> De : "info@riversonicstudios.com" <info@riversonicstudios.com>
>>> À : Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>>> Envoyé le : Mardi 19 février 2013 18h31
>>> Objet : Latency in looping path
>>> Hi Per,
>>> Thought Id get back to you to thank you and your frieds on the site 
>>> for your
>>> help.
>>> I have sussed the looping OK !
>>> However I now have another problem: progressive latency as I am now 
>>> running
>>> my main mix
>>> into Ableton LIVE before it reaches the the audience! I suspect I will 
>>> have
>>> to get a decent
>>> audio interface rather than using the MacPros I/O Have tried going in
>>> digitally from the KORG KRONOS via
>>> optical into the Mac- makes no difference. I suspect that coming out 
>>> analog
>>> is the main culprit.
>>> Anyway I was just wondering how any of you guys avoid this latency when
>>> running through ABLETON LIVE and
>>> if a Firewire 800 unit like the MOTU 828 Mk" or the RME 800 would be 
>>> the
>>> obvious solution to this problem?
>>> Audio path: I run all my synths/external drums from a bus on the analog
>>> mixer into a track on Ableton either using its LOOPER plugin
>>> or its straight forward auto input record function making sure of 
>>> course
>>> that the track is muted once the loop plays back in either instance.
>>> My mixer has a ":' alternate bus rooting fortunately that allows me to
>>> reroot the returned signal from Ableton avoiding feedback: I actually 
>>> send
>>> the signal via the main bus out on the mixer and reroot the return out 
>>> of
>>> the alt3/4 bus which feeds the P.A.
>>> BTW please forgive my rude interuption but I dont quite understand the
>>> format of your forum yet!.. as I understand it its all via email no?
>>> Thanks! Henry
>>>>---- Original Message ----
>>>>From: Per Boysen <perboysen@gmail.com>
>>>>To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>>>>Sent: Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 10:53 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: Still More Live Questions
>>>>On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Jeff Shirkey <jcshirke@frontier.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Let's say I have 15 scenes in a Live Set that I want to call up and 
>>>>> use
>>>>> in
>>>>> different songs. Song A might use scene 1. Song B might use scene 
>>>>> 5--and
>>>>> so
>>>>> on.  Maybe Song B will use two scenes--one each in different parts 
>>>>> of the
>>>>> song. There is no way to program my MIDI controller so that scene a 
>>>>> is
>>>>> armed
>>>>> when I hit song A's preset, correct? And there's no way to trigger 
>>>>> Song
>>>>> B's
>>>>> different scenes on a per-preset basis --or as I need them-- in the 
>>>>> song
>>>>> by
>>>>> doing that programming in advance in my MIDI controller--or is there?
>>>>MIDI PC is not good with Live, you should use simple MIDI notes
>>>>instead for launching scenes. To launch a scene in Live you learn the
>>>>MIDI Note (a CC might work too) to the corresponding slot on the
>>>>master output's column in the Session View. You can even use a MIDI
>>>>Note that are part of what your controller is sending to your guitar
>>>>rack when calling up a song, letting that event trigger both the
>>>>guitar rack stuff and launching the scene in Live. And note that there
>>>>are two options for controlling scens in Live; you may launch a scene
>>>>directly or you may select the scene (to be launched by the next
>>>>command). Oh, there is actually a third way (that I used myself with
>>>>Live for a concert once) and that is to learn the MIDI note event to
>>>>an empty scene preceding the actual scen that will start the song.
>>>>This approach also needs that you assign Live's "trigger next" button
>>>>to a pedal. At the gig I had this assigned both to a foot switch and a
>>>>hand mixer knob.
>>>>Greetings from Sweden
>>>>Per Boysen