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Re: Looper development and production costs?
At 02:41 PM 10/16/2001, you wrote:
>OK. Sure. Don't come to me when Gibson decides (again) that the EDP
actually, Gibson never made such a decision before. Rather the opposite,
they've kept the echoplex around even when divisions collapsed around it.
They've even very recently devoted substantial effort and money to keeping
it going, making improvements to it, and bettering the manufacturing
process. That is why they are currently easily available. Gibson has
believed in looping for a lot longer than just about any other company
that's touched the idea.
>My guess is not only will there not be an EDP 2, but within a
>year, there probably won't be an EDP at all.
It is impossible to know for sure what the future holds, but I don't see
that. As Tom pointed out, we are about to release a major new software
generation for it, allowing us an opportunity to reintroduce it to the
market and get new attention for all of the new functionality. In any
what Gibson decides to do isn't the same as what Aurisis decides to do. If
they don't want to do the EDP anymore, we find some alternative. At the
current time though, they seem to be pretty enthusiastic.
>The reason I don't own one is
>because it didn't exist when I was in the market for one, and when it
>was a better alternative. Because Electrix is aiming at a broader
>they'll win. If you don't think it's a numbers game, you're asleep. I'm
>suggesting (and offering my services for free, BTW) a logo redesign
>don't want to see the EDP go away, even though I'm glad I went to the
>There will be a big change soon, and Trace-Elliot should be worried.
Actually, they had more to be worried about when Electrix was constantly
delayed in releasing the Repeater. A lot of people delayed buying
until Repeater was out, so they could compare. The longer Repeater was
delayed, the longer that lasted. Now that Repeater is out and people have
looked at it, I've noticed more people buying echoplexes again. I don't
have sales data yet to know for sure, just a guess from comments people
have made to me in the past month or so. Decisions go both ways, depending
on what people want. People other than Mark seem to find quite a bit of
difference between the two. Some find the repeater is what they want, some
find the EDP was what they wanted after all. Probably some are buying the
RC-20 or the boomerang or dl-4 or Cycloops. The fact that there are quite
bit of differences among all of these gives sales people something to talk
about to differentiate and sell their thing. This has resulted in much
worry, not more, because the real situation is clear.
>I can say no
>more. There are more DJs than there are looping musicians, and Electrix
>hitting both bases.
I'm sorry, but I don't see many DJ's talking about the Repeater. Where do
you see that? I see a lot more discussion among dj's about the Cycloops,
which is a cool new looper well aimed at that market. In fact, I've
that after the initial excitement, discussion of the Repeater has died
a lot. Impossible to say if that means less sales. But I would guess there
was a sizable group of people built up over a year of waiting, who all
bought right at the beginning. After that big wave, sales are going to
from new people coming into the idea, which will be necessarily much
than the initial rush. Timing for Electrix probably couldn't be worse,
given world events and economic situations. But NAMM is coming so probably
they can get a boost out of that.
>If what Kim says about EDP sales is true, there aren't many
>EDP sales in a year. Barely enough to make it worth making, if I'm
>correctly. If Electrix takes a chunk of their sales (as they did with
>conversation will be moot.
No, what I'm saying is there are not many Looper sales in a year of any
kind. This message comes from all different manufacturers. Lexicon said
this after the jamman was a major money-loser for them. Their execs
considered looping a joke after that and laughed members of their staff
of the office for suggesting a jamman 2. Line-6 has just said this, when
they indicated it wasn't worth it to them to hire one programmer to work
the looper functions of the echo pro. TC says this in regards to their
delays. We see this in our own numbers. Etc.
It is a tiny market, and you organize your resources accordingly to be
successful in it. I think it is a growing market with a lot of potential,
but it is still very small. Principles that are true for high-volume
consumer goods are not true here. Yet the engineering effort required is
very high, as high as it would be for any consumer electronics product.
Loopers are very complex devices, much more so than the average effects
processor. You have to make smart choices based on what you can really do
with the money available and the expected ROI, and a mistake will quickly
put you out of business. Just because the market is small does not mean
that you cannot do well with it, you just have to operate on a scale
related to the actual market, and make rational decisions accordingly.
is the message I am sending.
Electrix actually helps the EDP, because they bring more attention to the
whole idea of looping just by existing. When there is only one product,
people think it is a niche and many stay away. When there is more than
people see a market with choices, and they get interested just for that.
More choices makes it seem bigger, even if it isn't. Significant growth in
sales of loopers does not happen by stealing customers back and forth from
one manufacturer to the other. That pool of existing loopers is too tiny
and not worth fighting over. Bringing new people into the pool is how it
grows. Electrix is a new entity doing marketing about looping. If Electrix
draws new attention to looping, many of those people will want to make
comparisons before they buy. Some of them will choose to buy something
different from the Repeater. No matter what, it is a new customer for
looping products, which is ultimately good for everybody. Who knows, maybe
that customer will buy a second looper next year, which will be a sale for
Kim Flint | Looper's Delight
firstname.lastname@example.org | http://www.loopers-delight.com