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At 09:59 PM 8/11/97 -0400, future perfect wrote:

>Kim Flint wrote:
>> Yet more proof that guitarists are the most arrogant people on earth....
>       I have not posted to the Looper list before: my roomate is a 
>and synthesist and I'm a singer and flutist...

oh, yeah, I forgot about singers. Guitarists are second. :-) 

Welcome to Looper's Delight...but you asked for it!

>       Though I do not wish to attack anyone on their views of music and 
>wide range of expressivity, I do not think a DJ is a musician. He may be
>a craftsman and an artist, just as say, a non-musician sound engineer
>can be, 

Many DJ's would agree with you. If you are talking about people who work at
radio stations or play hits from the 50's at weddings or whatever. That is 
craft that requires a lot of skill, but is not the same as being a 

However, there are many people using turntables and samplers and such to
create unique and new music. Many of these people started out as the 
sort of dj, working at dance clubs or whatever, and gradually used their
craft in increasingly creative ways. At some point they are quite obviously
(to me anyway) musicians. Where I live, a number of local rock bands have
even had dj's *as members* since the mid-80's. Functional, contributing
members of the band. Certainly as qualified to be musicians as the singer,
or even the drummer. :-)

The local rap/hip-hop scene had people creating unique, new music this way
for a decade before that. 

And really, to use your other example, there are a lot of recording
engineers crossing this boundary as well. I've heard a lot of remixes in 
past few years that were much more creative and interesting than the
originals. Is the engineer responsible for this really just a craftsman? 

You might not like music created in these ways, but it doesn't mean that it
is not music and the people doing it are not musicians. Let's not be so
judgemental. Open your mind a little and revel in the differences. Go roll
around in them. Soak them in, it won't hurt you. You might even find your
own musical sensibilites growing as a result.

>but I *do* believe you must play a musical instrument to be
>considered a musician. (And, yes, a voice *is* a musical instrument).:)

Well, I believe a musician is a person who creates music. Very simple, no
complications. However they wish to do that is fine, it's up to their own
creative muse. Who am I to decide?

>       If there is disagreement here, perhaps we must broaden our concept 
>what a musical instrument is...? 


To me, a musical instrument is whatever someone uses as a tool to create
music. Why do we need to draw some line in the dirt about what does and 
not qualify? Isn't that just a way to make sure we end up on the "right"
side of the line? It's just a path to elitism and arrogance, and I'm very
tired of seeing musicians behave that way. I've witnessed some 
music created with the most unlikely of devices, in the most unlikely
places, by the least likely individuals, and I'm very, very glad I was open
enough to listen and appreciate what I heard. 

Again, like I asked before, what is the goal of trying to prove that one
method for creating is better than another? Why do you feel a need to try?
If you succeed in proving this, what is your next step? 

You need to delve into your own head to answer those questions. For me it
meant understanding that after years of hard practice, I had developed a 
ego to go along with the speed at which I could wiggle my fingers. I had to
get over that and deal with a zillion insecurities about it all. I had to
get humbled a bunch of times too.  A never ending process, I imagine, but
undoubtedly a healthy one. I'm certain I would have stopped growing as a
musician if I hadn't dealt with those issues.

This whole list is about creating music in an unusual way. For me, a looper
is an instrument unto itself, and that's an idea that would probably be a
bit controversial most anywhere else. Given that, it's sort of amazing to 
to see some of the narrowness that's come up here about things like 
and dj's and whatever. It hardly seems useful for us to be promoting these
silly prejudices.

And Misha, thanks for letting me use your post as a soapbox. No hard
feelings meant, please feel free to join in any time. :-)

good thing I'm not motivated about working today,


Kim Flint                      408-752-9284
Mpact System Engineering       kflint@chromatic.com
Chromatic Research             http://www.chromatic.com