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One last question or two, does anybody here know of someone who has done something completely with birds, animals, samples environmental that was percussive as these birds were, and last has here anybody used bird calls and why? Was it for a particualar mood, for example. Mjh Hope I'm not chiming in too late on this, but I've been trying to catch up on things. Although it's not entirely natural sounds, I'm surprised no-one's mentioned "Granchester Meadows" by Roger Waters on Pink Floyd's ' 70 album "Ummagumma." There is a loop of a bird running all the way through it. Also, an album which I believe WAS actually made entirely with the sound of insects is "The Insect Musicians" by Graeme Revell (of SPK). The sounds were heavily modified (with lots of looping, no doubt) and end up sounding very electronic, and sometimes even orchestral. Well worth checking out. Jim Bailey