Re: EDP cost/promotion/etc -- history of stuff

["David" <vze2ncsr@verizon.net>]

Electrix went out of business, for any number of reasons, and The Repeater
may have been one of them, but NOT the only one.  I would venture a guess
that they expanded their product lines too fast and, as a very young
company, didn't have sufficient cost controls in place.

So, we are very very very lucky that Gibson re-re-re-started production of
the Echoplex Digital Pro.

At least two companies with the rights to the EDP have gone out of business
including Oberheim and Opcode, who picked up the EDP from OB.  Gibson, who
owned Opcode (and Oberheim) were convinced to use up inventory/parts 
sitting
in a warehouse and available to make 200 units.  At the same time there was
an organized ground-swell from this Loopers'-Delight List that connected to
a crew of the right people at Gibson, and showed them that a viable market
for the EDP exists, if it were to be put back into production.   Gibson
assigned production to the Trace Elliot unit.  There was talk of a
stereo-edp, or a half-rack edp, but it was the original "Oberheim" design
that was put back into production (with a few improvements) and we've been
happily looping ever after.

So, three cheers to The Team who have been producing our EDP hardware and
it's unique software.   And God bless all who loop with her.

David Kirkdorffer


----- Original Message -----
From: "Andre LaFosse" <altruist@earthlink.net>
To: <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 9:53 PM
Subject: EDP cost/promotion/etc and some figures for thought


> Yo Mark,
>
> Here we go again.  :\
>
> Mark Sottilaro wrote:
> > The EDP
> > does seem expensive to me, considering I bought my Repeaters for $525,
> > but tack on another $75 for more memory and it does put the Repeater in
> > the same range as the EDP.  You can't really compare the two, but if
> > you're looking for a stereo unit, the Repeater comes in a lot
> > cheaper... even at the currently inflated ebay prices.
>
> Think about this:
>
> - The EDP has been in production, with a few breaks, for about nine
> years and two software upgrades.  Both Gibson (the manufacturer) and
> Aurisis (the brain trust that actually designs the units) are alive and
> well, as is the product they've been putting time and money into.  The
> former has seen fit to revamp the EDP for the European market, and the
> latter has seen the software through two software upgrades
>
> - The Repeater, at a slightly lower street price, destroyed the company
> which had created it, and the Repeater itself, in less than one year of
> its release.  The now-extinct unit is still saddled with a fair number
> of bugs and a unique (and seemingly very difficult to replace) power
supply.
>
> For my money, I'd be willing to spend an extra $200 on a looper if it
> gave me a choice between these two scenarios.
>
> > If the
> > Repeater had been flying out the door, they probably would have
> > continued it's development, as would Gibson have continued it's
> > development of the EDP.
>
> Conversely, the fact that the Repeater destroyed Electrix now
> potentially makes life more difficult for other people who are looking
> to design a looper.  Because if a software designer is trying to shop or
> licence real-time looping code to a manufacturer, the Electric model of
> "business" could scare the hell out of prospective companies.
>
> > The truth of the matter is we loopers are a
> > fairly rare breed and the hardware we use is probably going to be
> > considered esoteric for quite some time unless someone figures out a
> > successful marketing scheme to pave the way for mass appeal of live
> > looping.
>
> The idea of looping in general is actually more popular than ever,
> thanks largely to the proliferation of software programs like Ableton
> Live, ACID, and now Radial - so much so that there's now a dedicated
> category for "loop editors" in a lot of music retail web sites.
>
> These programs are not necessarily designed with live-input looping in
> mind, but the fact that so many people are interested in real-time
> loop-based music making means that more and more people's heads are
> getting tuned to the idea.  And that means there will be lots of people
> who, for whatever reasons, will be more inclined to want an
> EDP/Repeater/Boomerang than a computer running Ableton/Radial/ACID.
>
> I see this every time I do a clinic - people who don't know anything
> about looping start asking questions about how they might be able to
> implement certain types of functions and applications.
>
> > I
> > remember a thread about marketing looping to a broader audience that
> > was met with huge resistance by a lot of list members.
> > Pissed me the
> > hell off.
> > As if having a label would change what we were doing, people
> > refused to be described.
>
> OK Mark.
>
> As one of the people who pissed you off so in that exchage, maybe this
> will make you feel better... or at least help to acquit myself of your
> charge of shunning descriptive labels and hoarding looping to this
> mailing list:
>
> These are raw page views and downloads from my website, from December
> 25th, 2001 (when I uploaded my first wave of EDP solos), to yesterday -
> about 15 months.  These are not hits; these are actual unique pageviews
> and invidiual file downloads.
>
> /EDP/index.html (main page for the EDP analysis pages): 5,916 pageviews
> asana.mp3: 2,442 downloads
> /EDP/ambient.html: 1,820 pageviews
> /EDP/tg.html: 1,609 pageviews
> glitch.mp3: 1,409 downloads
> /EDP/dt.html: 1,111 pageviews
> /EDP/2001.html: 1,066 pageviews
> relent.mp3: 1,055 downloads
> umbra.mp3: 1,036 downloads
> azimuth.ram: 934 streams
> insinuation.mp3: downloads
> /EDP/muso.html: 845 downloads
> strange.mp3: 819 downloads
> ton.mp3: 700 downloads
> backwardsglance.mp3: 680 downloads
> spastic.mp3: 620 downloads
> reaction.mp3: 587 downloads
> diorama.mp3: 585 downloads
> flux.mp3: 585 downloads
> entwined.mp3: 584 downloads
> bookworm.mp3: 583 downloads
> hushed.mp3: 528 downloads
> gestalt.mp3: 517 downloads
> bela.mp3: 475 downloads
> shrine.mp3: 466 downloads
> smalldrama.mp3: 436 downloads
> instant.mp3: 395 downloads
>
> Now, as for my alleged refusal to label what I'm doing:
>
> I came up with a label called "turntablist guitar" which at least 2,500
> people have heard in action and 1,600 people have specifically read
> about, and has fostered discussions like this one:
>
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?Y2E4144B3
>
> I personally think this is a better, more evocative, and more accurate
> label than "juggling music" (which is one of the labels Matthias was
> seriously considering for his loop music web site, in the thread which
> caused you so much grief).
>
> I feel it's more specific and informative than "loop music," because
> that could be Brian Eno or Steve Reich or Public Enemy or Underworld or
> Aphex Twin, and it talks about how a type of music is made, rather than
> what it sounds like.
>
> I don't want to require potential listeners to sit through a technical
> lecture or a philosophical essay before they're going to have some clue
> as to what my music sounds like.  And I don't think it's fair to any
> artist for their stylistic orientation to be glossed over in the name of
> forcing them into a box with a bunch of completely unrelated musical
> styles because they use the same kind of gear.
>
> If you put a lot of time and energy into marketing something the wrong
> way, you're not doing anyone any favors.  Ask Electrix - if you can even
> get an answer from them nowadays.
>
> These are a few of the reasons I objected to ideas in that thread, Mark.
>  If you're going to belittle my opinion, then I hope you'll at least
> grant me the change of trying to justify it?
>
> > Here's the real kick in the ass: I believe that one of the
> > problems here is with US.  I think most of us love our little secret
> > looping devices and techniques and this tiny community we've built.
>
> You might notice that, about halfway down that list of downloads, the
> number go from being close to 1,000 to being closer to 500.
>
> Most of the downloads in the latter portion were LoopIII solos which
> were posted primarily to this list.  Most of the more heavily downloaded
> files, in the first half, are LoopIV sounds which were promoted on the
> Looper's Delight and Aurisis web sites, as well as the LoopIV press
release.
>
> In other words, being promoted off this list has, ironically, been one
> of the best things to happen to my own music.
>
> A lot of us have been working our asses off to take this stuff, out of
> the realm of the armchair philosophical debate and into the world at
> large.  Thousands of people have been listening to my EDP solos and
> reading my performance transcriptions.  Tens of thousands of people
> heard and saw Steve Lawson playing with two EDP's on the Level 42 tour
> last year.  Everyone who read the back-page editorial in Electronic
> Musician last year found out about Loopstock.  Rick Walker made the
> front page of the Santa Cruz Metro in January.
>
> Ironically enough, Mark, your scathing denouncement of Gibson, the EDP,
> Looper's Delight, and people who don't agree with you on a
> half-year-dead thread (including myself) comes at a point when I've been
> seriously questioning the tremendous amount of time and effort I've
> expended over the last year and a half.  To try and present my music in
> a compelling and unique manner, and to inform people about the nuts and
> bolts of exactly what I was doing, has been a very long and arduous path.
>
> Reading emails like yours, though, make me seriously wonder if this
> hasn't been a serious waste of time.
>
> So I'm sorry, Mark.  I'm sorry nobody's come up with a label to describe
> every member of this list that I agree with.  I'm sorry I haven't been
> able to demonstrate what's so special about the EDP in a manner that
> justifies the cost to you.  I'm sorry if 6,000 page views in 15 months
> for a looping tutorial site with no advertising budget isn't getting you
> the results you'd like.
>
> Maybe if I posted nasty and curmudgeonly messages to Looper's Delight
> criticizing the attitudes and efforts of its other members, I'd really
> be getting somewhere.  In the meantime, I have to go finish an album.
>
> I hate to be argumentative, Mark, but you may not realize how hurtful
> your kind of attitude can be.  Please think about this next time, before
> you scream through your keyboard again?
>
> --Andre LaFosse
> http://www.altruistmusic.com
>